AA TA - Industry Rate Comparables (DOS+36)
07-04-2012, 12:15 PM
#31
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by eaglefly
I think you've been suckered in by the best and seem to be taking a lot of line (Quint would be yelling at me to pour water on the reel). AMR is NOT in bankruptcy NOW because of neccesity, but by CHOICE and for one reason only; to GUT labor (and not just to competitive lavels, but the lowest in the industry). All of us are aware our old "gutted" contract was no longer competitive, but what the TA offers is threat of death at any time in the future to the junior half. What YOU don't understand (and it's not your fault), is this TA is littered with so much ambiguous language, many provisons mean little, aside from the virtual blank check on outsourcing abilities via code-sharing and "commuter flying" (79-seat Etops capable airliners).
Parkers plan won't matter as he'll never get to present it. If the TA is ratified, AMR will maintain control throughout the process and exit stand-alone. THEN, if there is a U merger, it will be a deal between Horton and Parker for THEIR mutual benefit, not mine or yours. IF it's in their best interests, you'll be working under this TA too........well, those of you still employed.
Do you have a no-furlough clause ?
They can whack 10% of us the minute they exit and Horton and Parker make an announcement. Partial mergers/fragmentation ?
Well, let's not go there......too scary. How about if Horton passes up U (or some of it) and goes toward Jet Blue ?
What's that do for you and the USAPA follies in perpituity ?
No, I think the best bet for PILOTS (ALL affected pilots) is Parker getting his foot in the door while AA is still in chapter 11 and us under the U/APA CLA (unfortunately, I think it's already a done deal between them and it will be palatable to both once AA exits stand-alone). Us on the other hand..........well, if the TA is ratified, it will be bad for all.
Parkers plan won't matter as he'll never get to present it. If the TA is ratified, AMR will maintain control throughout the process and exit stand-alone. THEN, if there is a U merger, it will be a deal between Horton and Parker for THEIR mutual benefit, not mine or yours. IF it's in their best interests, you'll be working under this TA too........well, those of you still employed.
Do you have a no-furlough clause ?
They can whack 10% of us the minute they exit and Horton and Parker make an announcement. Partial mergers/fragmentation ?
Well, let's not go there......too scary. How about if Horton passes up U (or some of it) and goes toward Jet Blue ?
What's that do for you and the USAPA follies in perpituity ?
No, I think the best bet for PILOTS (ALL affected pilots) is Parker getting his foot in the door while AA is still in chapter 11 and us under the U/APA CLA (unfortunately, I think it's already a done deal between them and it will be palatable to both once AA exits stand-alone). Us on the other hand..........well, if the TA is ratified, it will be bad for all.
07-04-2012, 12:42 PM
#32
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by cactiboss
I am going to have to strongly disagree with you. You seem to forget that you "are" in bankruptcy, regardless of why it was done you are in it now and have no illusions that an amr imposed contract will be better than this deal you are voting on. As far as the merger, well I just don't see what makes you so sure that this deal makes usair irrelevant since every expert says it will make it more likely that the merger happens. Common sense says Horton's bad plan is even worse with higher labor costs.
LOL ! One would have to be living on Venus for that to happen. Look cacti, it's obvious to me your primary concern is maximizing the chances of this merger to free yourself from USAPA, but that's not what's driving most of us at AA. Odd that Horton's "bad plan" would be worse with this TA and then would supposedly improve the chances of alienating the UCC. If that were true, why would the other UCC members be supporting both the ratification of this TA concurrently with supporting Horton ?
That hypothisis is illogical IMO.
Many here believe this TA will do far more good for Horton and his team, then it will hurt. Why do you think they agreed to it and want it so bad ?
I'm afraid merging with you isn't the goal of most AA pilots, it's just the least objectionable option. The FIRST priority is ensure we don't live to regret it and long-term existence under this TA isn't going down well with the majority I've spoken to. It didn't even go down well with almost half the BOD. I'm afraid you'll just have to watch from afar while AA pilots determine what AA pilots are and are not willing to do, FOR the interests of AA pilots instead of maximizing the desires of others. The fact is, we will have little chance of influencing what POR becomes reality inside bankruptcy. There are 9 creditors on the UCC and approval requires a 2/3 majority from what I understand. That means the pilots are 1 of 9 or even if the mechanics and F/A's get their CBA's abrogated, that's still 1 in 7. Any way you look at it, we're likely just observers anyway. The only thing we CAN control is ourselves.
I understand if you disagree.
Last edited by eaglefly; 07-04-2012 at 01:01 PM.
07-04-2012, 07:03 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
Passing this TA versus voting it down baffles me. Normally, I can sift through the information and make a logical decision. Not this time. I feel like a passed TA is just as bad as one that does not pass.
I do firmly believe that the US Airways deal in bankruptcy is clearly the best route for all pilot groups involved. I just don't know what effect this TA will truly have on that potential end result.
As I stated in the past, I am relieved that this is not my decision to make. Good luck guys.
I do firmly believe that the US Airways deal in bankruptcy is clearly the best route for all pilot groups involved. I just don't know what effect this TA will truly have on that potential end result.
As I stated in the past, I am relieved that this is not my decision to make. Good luck guys.
07-05-2012, 04:06 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Voting NO!!
"My personal decision is that I will not let the legal system force my assent to a contract that is anything BUT consensual." <---- BEST quote ever from one of our own.
We have a gun pointed at us to sign one of the most concessionary contracts ever. 10+ years under AMR's thumb. Massive Scope concessions. Massive domestic code share. Ambiguous contract language. I could go on and on. For what, a possible deal with USAirways (that might fall through), 13.5% of the company and keeping our place on the UCC? and even THAT is ambiguously written!!
Fuhggedaboudit! Taking my chances with the judge. I could not even BEGIN to look myself in the mirror voting yes to this turd!
<Rant off>
73
"My personal decision is that I will not let the legal system force my assent to a contract that is anything BUT consensual." <---- BEST quote ever from one of our own.
We have a gun pointed at us to sign one of the most concessionary contracts ever. 10+ years under AMR's thumb. Massive Scope concessions. Massive domestic code share. Ambiguous contract language. I could go on and on. For what, a possible deal with USAirways (that might fall through), 13.5% of the company and keeping our place on the UCC? and even THAT is ambiguously written!!
Fuhggedaboudit! Taking my chances with the judge. I could not even BEGIN to look myself in the mirror voting yes to this turd!
<Rant off>
73
07-05-2012, 05:10 AM
#35
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by aa73
Voting NO!!
"My personal decision is that I will not let the legal system force my assent to a contract that is anything BUT consensual." <---- BEST quote ever from one of our own.
We have a gun pointed at us to sign one of the most concessionary contracts ever. 10+ years under AMR's thumb. Massive Scope concessions. Massive domestic code share. Ambiguous contract language. I could go on and on. For what, a possible deal with USAirways (that might fall through), 13.5% of the company and keeping our place on the UCC? and even THAT is ambiguously written!!
Fuhggedaboudit! Taking my chances with the judge. I could not even BEGIN to look myself in the mirror voting yes to this turd!
<Rant off>
73
"My personal decision is that I will not let the legal system force my assent to a contract that is anything BUT consensual." <---- BEST quote ever from one of our own.
We have a gun pointed at us to sign one of the most concessionary contracts ever. 10+ years under AMR's thumb. Massive Scope concessions. Massive domestic code share. Ambiguous contract language. I could go on and on. For what, a possible deal with USAirways (that might fall through), 13.5% of the company and keeping our place on the UCC? and even THAT is ambiguously written!!
Fuhggedaboudit! Taking my chances with the judge. I could not even BEGIN to look myself in the mirror voting yes to this turd!
<Rant off>
73
07-05-2012, 06:10 AM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by tsquare
You gotta do what you gotta do.. but turning down anything in BK will not better your case. The judge is gonna allow the company to do what it needs to survive. Sucks, but it is the truth... been there done that
Most likely in reality, if AMR elects to then turn AA into a torture chamber for pilots, attrition will increase above desired rates and levels and this airline will become operationally and competitively crippled. How bad will they make it and for how long before certain parties become reasonable ?
Those are the $60,000 questions.
I consider myself a human being (although some here would disagree
) and see this TA with this language and provisions forced upon me in this way to be at odds with my own self-respect. I see it as literally selling my self worth out for nothing like it has no value. I simply can't do that, regardless of the consequences. The school bully would never force me to give up my lunch money no matter how painfully he twisted my arm and likewise, I wouldn't make a deal with the devil for my soul either. I guess there comes a time in most peoples lives when circumstances in this world force you to make that choice and once you make that choice in a certain direction, there's no going back. Rationalization and denial then become your friends for the remainder of your days to get by.I, like most, understand the competitve situation for the future AA and am willing to bend over backward to compromise to assist in achieving that goal, but this isn't about compromise, it's about capitulation.........complete and total capitulation.
That I cannot and will not do.........at least willingly.
07-05-2012, 06:31 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
BINGO Eaglefly!
TSquare, if I have to choose between voting yes to career suicide vs taking my chances with the judge, suffering for a year or two (if AA even survives the labor chaos) and getting a chance to renegotiate under the RLA once we exit, the choice is easy.
There is no respect associated with a Yes vote.
A No vote means I am willing to fight.
'Nuff said!
TSquare, if I have to choose between voting yes to career suicide vs taking my chances with the judge, suffering for a year or two (if AA even survives the labor chaos) and getting a chance to renegotiate under the RLA once we exit, the choice is easy.
There is no respect associated with a Yes vote.
A No vote means I am willing to fight.
'Nuff said!
07-05-2012, 07:59 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 155
Really tough choice for you AA folks. A judge who's duty is not for your wellfare but the creditors vs an airline management team who always has and will do all it can to further it's attack on the professional pilot.
Be carefull with Parker, he is no friend of a pilot, promotes the division in his company and there is a group in the pilot ranks at Airways that would never take a stand against Parker in a contract dispute, there is a history there.
Best of luck to you folks.
Be carefull with Parker, he is no friend of a pilot, promotes the division in his company and there is a group in the pilot ranks at Airways that would never take a stand against Parker in a contract dispute, there is a history there.
Best of luck to you folks.
07-05-2012, 11:55 AM
#40
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by eaglefly
I understand if you disagree.
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