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05-27-2013 | 06:12 AM
#1001
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
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From: A320 Capt
What it means is that when placed next to our list that pilot would be in the same relative position he was one day prior to the award. What you want to to is give that same individual super seniority where he goes from res F/O to mid level line holding capt. Oh yeah I get you all's desire now and hell why not? Be at a failing airline that gets bailed out and then take positions that you were not going to get within your own carrier. That was totally fair how could we have ever missed that?
WD at AWA
WD at AWA
There are many variables to a SLI. A persons position on any given day is only one of them. Bet you agree with that thought on the next SLI.
05-27-2013 | 06:16 AM
#1002
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
It seems to me that Carl has taken the time to understand this much better than most that chime in, but since he disagrees with you, you want him to shut up. Par for the course.
05-27-2013 | 06:20 AM
#1003
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
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From: A320 Capt
I have to disagree with WD on this one. Maybe this is a complete waste of time but If you are truly on the outside and are truly asking to gain insight rather than further the poop fight, then...
I understand why you would ask that question, particularly if you've been reading postings by the Eastern half of the operation. I would suggest reading the actual Nic award and draw your own conclussions. It is both eloquent and very reasonable. It is a 76 page .pdf file but in addition to the "Award", it includes a host of information that explains background, the concurring and dissenting opinions, and the 35 page seniority list.
*Nicolau Arbitration Award*
From MY perspective, the West is so adamant the Nic list be used because it is the outcome of agreed upon negotiation. It isn't as good as what the West pilot's had asked but since the West had sought a more centrist "ratio" based solution and the East had sought an extremist DOH solution, it was closer to what the the West pilots expected. EVERY West pilot on the list lost "relative" seniority as a result of Nic's placement of 517 East pilots at the top of the list, but the reasoning was....well...reasonable. My bidding power prior to the Nic was slightly better than what it was after but it was a new company with new long term benefits and I understood that. On the East the promise of every pilot, regardless of seniority within that group and furlough status, being able to immediately hold Captain in Phoenix was intoxicating. Furthermore, they were given the expectation of that being the only REASONABLE outcome. That is why they were so stunned at the decision, why they think it's so unfair, and why so many have bought into the Jihad philosophy that has resulted.
Following the release of the George Nicolau's decision, some on the East suggested a fair (*POST NEGOTIATION*) compromise would be DOH with "Conditions and Restrictions". It could be DOH plus anything you can dream of but at the end of the day, it still amounts to DOH which means through the entire process, the East has never changed their position. I'd say that amounts to extremist.
Perhaps an equally reasonable question would be if DOH isn't a windfall, then why would the East throw out ALPA in a misguided effort to remove the West's representation and attempt to force implementation of an integration that SIGNIFICANTLY benefits that exclusive pilot group? Why has the East continued to accept bankruptcy pay rates and work rules and refused to move forward with negotiated contractual improvements knowing they will be forced to honor their past agreements? Would that not count as attempting to cash a "winning lottery ticket" and wouldn't you understand the West's actions to prevent it?
Unfortunately, the company has worsened the situation by continuing operate the West with a reduced workforce while hiring on the East. Basically, that equates to furloughing only 737 pilots while hiring Airbus pilots and offering to let 737 guys come back on the bottom of the Airbus pilot's list. The reality is since so many FOs have upgraded East, that thanks to a no bump no flush policy, they have essentially achieved their goal of DOH...at least for the purpose of upgrade. They will remain junior within those ranks forever but if you've ever seen the Captain worship that goes on over there, you'd understand why so many FOs continue to wear 4 stripes. It seems to be a case of, "I was a Captain once and so everybody
to understand I'm not just some whipping boy FO". Sadly, that's exactly what they are. I've been downgraded. I get it. But at the end of the day, you just have to put on your big boy pants and get over it.
Whether or not you agree with what I've said, I hope this answers your question in a manner you find understandable and reasonable.
East pilots: Your ball.
I understand why you would ask that question, particularly if you've been reading postings by the Eastern half of the operation. I would suggest reading the actual Nic award and draw your own conclussions. It is both eloquent and very reasonable. It is a 76 page .pdf file but in addition to the "Award", it includes a host of information that explains background, the concurring and dissenting opinions, and the 35 page seniority list.
*Nicolau Arbitration Award*
From MY perspective, the West is so adamant the Nic list be used because it is the outcome of agreed upon negotiation. It isn't as good as what the West pilot's had asked but since the West had sought a more centrist "ratio" based solution and the East had sought an extremist DOH solution, it was closer to what the the West pilots expected. EVERY West pilot on the list lost "relative" seniority as a result of Nic's placement of 517 East pilots at the top of the list, but the reasoning was....well...reasonable. My bidding power prior to the Nic was slightly better than what it was after but it was a new company with new long term benefits and I understood that. On the East the promise of every pilot, regardless of seniority within that group and furlough status, being able to immediately hold Captain in Phoenix was intoxicating. Furthermore, they were given the expectation of that being the only REASONABLE outcome. That is why they were so stunned at the decision, why they think it's so unfair, and why so many have bought into the Jihad philosophy that has resulted.
Following the release of the George Nicolau's decision, some on the East suggested a fair (*POST NEGOTIATION*) compromise would be DOH with "Conditions and Restrictions". It could be DOH plus anything you can dream of but at the end of the day, it still amounts to DOH which means through the entire process, the East has never changed their position. I'd say that amounts to extremist.
Perhaps an equally reasonable question would be if DOH isn't a windfall, then why would the East throw out ALPA in a misguided effort to remove the West's representation and attempt to force implementation of an integration that SIGNIFICANTLY benefits that exclusive pilot group? Why has the East continued to accept bankruptcy pay rates and work rules and refused to move forward with negotiated contractual improvements knowing they will be forced to honor their past agreements? Would that not count as attempting to cash a "winning lottery ticket" and wouldn't you understand the West's actions to prevent it?
Unfortunately, the company has worsened the situation by continuing operate the West with a reduced workforce while hiring on the East. Basically, that equates to furloughing only 737 pilots while hiring Airbus pilots and offering to let 737 guys come back on the bottom of the Airbus pilot's list. The reality is since so many FOs have upgraded East, that thanks to a no bump no flush policy, they have essentially achieved their goal of DOH...at least for the purpose of upgrade. They will remain junior within those ranks forever but if you've ever seen the Captain worship that goes on over there, you'd understand why so many FOs continue to wear 4 stripes. It seems to be a case of, "I was a Captain once and so everybody
to understand I'm not just some whipping boy FO". Sadly, that's exactly what they are. I've been downgraded. I get it. But at the end of the day, you just have to put on your big boy pants and get over it.
Whether or not you agree with what I've said, I hope this answers your question in a manner you find understandable and reasonable.
East pilots: Your ball.
05-27-2013 | 07:13 AM
#1005
Weekend workaholic
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 669
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From: A320 CA
05-27-2013 | 07:59 AM
#1006
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
I've said that, IMHO of course, that DOH as proposed by USAPA was unfair to the west.
Doesn't matter. Their SLI was never negotiated with the company and with the merger and MOU will never happen.
05-27-2013 | 08:00 AM
#1007
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
I'm not sure but I seem to remember that has read the Nic.
05-27-2013 | 08:19 AM
#1008
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Complete outsider looking in here. I took the time to read the whole document, minus the names. I've grown tired of the endless arguing and personal jibes, not to mention the constant thread hijacking by both sides of this fight. I don't think I've ever seen anyone post the link to the judgement before, so thanks. It makes fascinating reading and paints a clear picture of what was clearly a very difficult decision. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind and I don't think it's my place to judge people so deeply involved in a tough situation or to take sides in a fight I have no place in. The only point I would make is that both sides would be a hell of a lot better off if you could step back, put yourself in the other guy's shoes and really try and understand his view. Best of luck all.
Thanks again for the education.
Thanks again for the education.
05-27-2013 | 10:05 AM
#1009
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 581
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I have read the Nic and found it neither eloquent nor reasonable (as someone posted earlier). The decision was unarguably and so far inexplicably, made devoid of many relevant facts. I hate that once again I have not resisted the temptation to spend any more valuable time on this post but apparently there are people who are genuinely trying to understand what happened. First understand that nothing happens in a vacuum and also know that this cannot be resolved outside of the legal system. The situation was that USAirways pilots had given up their retirement and had agreed to the most concessionary contract in the industry. They had done so because they believed that this would allow the company to live to see another day- not only saving the company but also their seniority. Many of the America West pilots saw it not as a merger but an acquisition. They argued that America West had saved USAirways. USAirways pilots believed that they had saved the company and that this was a merger that their sacrifices had facilitated. Let me just say here that I will not argue the virtues of these positions- I am merely explaining the mindset of the pilots and the landscape of the merger because you seem genuinely interested. I have lost tens of thousands of dollars because of this and I was one of the few, senior enough that the Nic damage would have been minimal. However I have supported USAPA throughout this process and still do. My reasons were: First the Nic was far too egregious to accept (see earlier post). Second, I believe that ALPA did not protect its members and does not serve as a union. It is rather a conglomeration of individual pilot groups that may or may not compete with one another, thus it is ineffective. I believed then and now that until pilots realize that it is all of us against management we will be at a disadvantage. We have chosen a profession that necessitates a DOH seniority system within airlines. Imagine this bunch if they could get promoted within a company by any means other than DOH. We have demonstrated over and over that we would eat our own young if it were sitting in a left seat on a wide body that we next in line for. As a group, historically a pilot’s demise (i.e. just bad luck or a bad decision on the part of that pilot’s management) has meant either survival or a bigger piece of the pie for the rest of the pilots. Management has known this and has used this, the RLA and bankruptcy laws to completely redefine our profession. So I took a stand. It defied all rational choice theory in the prisoner’s dilemma. Had Doug Parker offered money to ease the pain of the Nic- had the two sides reached a settlement that included fences early on, rational choice would have kicked in and I think that this could have ended outside the legal system. However, the problem of no real union would have not been solved. The McCaskill-Bond Amendment and the fact that there are now only four airlines is a positive trend for pilots. The USAirways / America West dispute cannot be remedied. At this point too much time has passed and too much damage is done.
05-27-2013 | 10:12 AM
#1010
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
FWIW, Carl was an ardent proponent of DOH in the DL/NW merger. The bias does need to be accounted for.
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