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Old 02-20-2013, 09:22 AM
  #21  
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"I think you guys are jumping the gun again and I hope it doesn't screw up the merger."


R57- Make no mistake- Parker will not let this or anything else screw up his merger. We do know, however, how effective Parker is at driving wedge issues deeper to achieve his merger OR avoid paying his pilots industry standard wages. I just hope that the language in the MOU is ironclad and he can't go forward with the merger without it. Of course, there is that pesky change of control for the East, which I suspect is why the West voted 100% for the MOU. We'll see. Either way, we were all expecting this.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:30 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by justjack View Post
Either way, we were all expecting this.
Yes we were, I just didn't expect it this soon, when nothing has really changed yet.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:23 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by justjack View Post
Cactiboss- Y'all just do what you think that you need to do. But I think that you would be an affective leader if you would just stop posting about it so much. Everybody knows that you are headed in this direction. All of this posturing is not leading to more awareness. Just do it.
Yes, Cactiboss... Nike.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:10 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by R57 relay View Post
A couple of things cacti, with the clear understanding that I am not an attorney.
There are couple guys here that have their law degrees maybe they can chime in.
You say that you guys will file suit as soon as the deal closes. I figured as much. But, and maybe I'm reading the AOL update and Harper letter wrong, but they seem to think it is ripe now. I don't see that. The MOU does not put us all on a JCBA as the AOL update says.
On the "effective date" the Mou itself says we are all on the same contract, further the mou says that contract is retroactive to feb. 8th. Usapa and company says that a agreement that changes pay/vacation/ work rules is not a contract, we say it is and that is what judges are for. We also believe that the act of specifically excluding the Nic\. from the mou is collusion with usapa and another avenue to sue the merged company and the apa if the nic. is not used.
It is a pathway to get to one, but many obstacles remain and we very well might not get there. I believe US/UA went a year with merger plans before UA pulled the plug because of DOJ(DOT?) objections and a declining economy. If this merger falls through we are still on our separate contracts with separate ops.
True but a seniority list wouldn't take effect until after closure so it doesn't matter
Seems like you would need to wait for the JCBA to be completed,
The JCBA completion is our second bite at the apple if a judge doesn't buy the mou as a contract.
USAPA could negotiate in a way with the APA that does represent the west's best interests, particularly if their attorneys decide that the really are backed into a corner. I know you're laughing, but we don't know yet.
Why would we want usapa to negotiate a thing? You are smart enough to figure out why we want the apa scared of colluding with usapa/
Also, I find this line kind of odd:

"The MOU vote has proven us (and Judge Wake) right: Given enough money there never was an impasse."

That is technically right, but not practically. It kind of like saying "There would be no mold on my deck if it wasn't so humid here." Yeah, that's right, but it is humid in the south, hence I get to deal with mold on my deck. The 7 years that have passed have proven there was an impasse. I always said that with enough money that a Nic inclusive contract WOULD pass. But I also said that I didn't think Parker would put forth a contract with enough money. He has been consistent with the message that a standalone US could not, and he would not, pay the same as DL and UA. But, that if we merged with a bigger carrier we could. That's what happened. A merger allowed the higher rates, and the MOU is seniority neutral, that's why it passed.
So why would the nic. not be used? The passage of this TA shows that there was never an "absolute impass" just as the west argued, the east has voted in a path to a guaranteed new contract (goes to arbitration) the Nicolau didn't go away did it?
Why would your attorneys reference a court case that has been dismissed?
It was dismissed without prejudice and it was dismissed only on ripeness grounds. The 9th made clear that a contract would make the case ripe. A case that was dismissed without prejudice can be refiled when "ripe".
I think you guys are jumping the gun again and I hope it doesn't screw up the merger.
We are making sure that it is clear to the company lawyers (us/aa) that they will be sued and a tro requested if they collude with usapa. You seem to think that once dismissed a case just goes away, that is not so. Look no further than the declaratory judgement where Silver continuously goes back to addington.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:15 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by KillingMeSmalls View Post
I was on an Airways jumpseat and the FO ('08 hire) brought up a good point.

He is currently a line holder on the bus and if the Nic is used he would get stapled below all the west guys. Since the McCaskill-Bond was radified after the Nic Award and the legislation was enacted to prevent this from happening, then what would happen to this guy?
He is junior to all west pilots now, why would the merger change that? Oh wait he is in the east, seniority is like crew meals.....
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:19 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by ackattacker View Post
Furthermore, it ignores Judge Silver's clear-cut finding that USAPA and LCC were absolutely free to negotiate a list,
Is that all Silver said? How about the part that says usapa needs to have a legitimate union purpose to change the seniority list to benefit the east? What is usapa's legitimate union purpose to harm the west?
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:26 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by cactiboss View Post
There are couple guys here that have their law degrees maybe they can chime in.
On the "effective date" the Mou itself says we are all on the same contract, further the mou says that contract is retroactive to feb. 8th. Usapa and company says that a agreement that changes pay/vacation/ work rules is not a contract, we say it is and that is what judges are for. We also believe that the act of specifically excluding the Nic\. from the mou is collusion with usapa and another avenue to sue the merged company and the apa if the nic. is not used.
True but a seniority list wouldn't take effect until after closure so it doesn't matter
The JCBA completion is our second bite at the apple if a judge doesn't buy the mou as a contract. Why would we want usapa to negotiate a thing? You are smart enough to figure out why we want the apa scared of colluding with usapa/
So why would the nic. not be used? The passage of this TA shows that there was never an "absolute impass" just as the west argued, the east has voted in a path to a guaranteed new contract (goes to arbitration) the Nicolau didn't go away did it?
It was dismissed without prejudice and it was dismissed only on ripeness grounds. The 9th made clear that a contract would make the case ripe. A case that was dismissed without prejudice can be refiled when "ripe".

We are making sure that it is clear to the company lawyers (us/aa) that they will be sued and a tro requested if they collude with usapa. You seem to think that once dismissed a case just goes away, that is not so. Look no further than the declaratory judgement where Silver continuously goes back to addington.
Interesting. We'll see how it works out. I think you guys are way off base on a bunch of those items, but I'll just keep those to myself.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:32 AM
  #28  
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Oh, if you can answer one more thing. How do you see the APA colluding with USAPA?
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:40 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by cactiboss View Post
What is usapa's legitimate union purpose to harm the west?
Hasn't been determined, has it?
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:47 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by R57 relay View Post
Oh, if you can answer one more thing. How do you see the APA colluding with USAPA?
Usapa and apa are suppose to negotiate a sli prior to arbitration according to mou, we have informed the apa of our legal issues. If apa negotiates with usapa and something besides the Nic. Is used, well the apa has been warned and can't claim ignorance.
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