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03-15-2013, 05:38 AM
#521
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
Originally Posted by cactiboss
I suggest you add the west experts, do away with mandatory doh and make the merger committee completely independent. I suggest you put forward a relative seniority list with 7 year fences on the wide boîtes like dal/nwa did. I suggest the mc put forward that since the usairways side has a much higher percentage of retirement over the next seven years and that the merger helped both sides, a straight relative integration is appropriate ( instead of a Nic heavy preference on heavies). But alas, the east will walk in and demand doh.
03-15-2013, 08:27 AM
#522
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by R57 relay
There is enough wiggle room in the C&BLs to get around DOH. Everyone knows that our C&BLs mean nothing in a merger.
Not joining the MC committee until DOH goes away is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. The coming SLI is bigger than the Nic.
I tell you what. Between DOH and Nic hardliners, the AA pilots have nothing to worry about.
Not joining the MC committee until DOH goes away is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. The coming SLI is bigger than the Nic.
I tell you what. Between DOH and Nic hardliners, the AA pilots have nothing to worry about.
Last edited by cactiboss; 03-15-2013 at 09:07 AM.
03-15-2013, 08:33 AM
#523
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
I must say that perhaps we are now moving towards common ground. Not demanding the nic or nothing shows me that YOU are willing to explore other ideas that in fact will benefit the LCC pilots as we face off with the APA. I have great respect for the APA but must admit that they will be a worthy adversary in the upcoming SLI. We must be united or WE (LCC) pilots will pay the price...Remember, there is always room for worse..
03-16-2013, 07:03 AM
#524
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Originally Posted by R57 relay
I didn't remain silent during the process. I saw how flawed it was with the PI/US and US/Trump merger. I saw how politics worked to change the ALPA merger policy to help certain people. Much like my emails to my Congressmen and Senators, my opinion wasn't listened to and was along for the ride.
History and separate ops have shown how flawed the system was. It's clear as day, you guys just can't admit it. To admit it would take away your righteousness.
I am flying the bus, but AWA paid for NONE of them. AWA is dead, and the part of the company I came with is making the bulk of the profits to pay for the new ones. FACT.
You may be right, I don't know. Your debt might be paid, again I don't know. I don't see it with the current strategy, but if it works I will say you were right.
Now, do you agree with Cacti about not participating in the next SLI process until DOH is gone? BTW, I never thought DOH should have been in the C&BLs.
History and separate ops have shown how flawed the system was. It's clear as day, you guys just can't admit it. To admit it would take away your righteousness.
I am flying the bus, but AWA paid for NONE of them. AWA is dead, and the part of the company I came with is making the bulk of the profits to pay for the new ones. FACT.
You may be right, I don't know. Your debt might be paid, again I don't know. I don't see it with the current strategy, but if it works I will say you were right.
Now, do you agree with Cacti about not participating in the next SLI process until DOH is gone? BTW, I never thought DOH should have been in the C&BLs.
I also LOVE the part where you east folk talk about how profitable usair is and how weak AWA was. Tell me something though if the east was so profitable why on earth was it twice bankrupt in an extremely short period of time prior to Doug Parker coming in and saving it from complete destruction???
I know you also dont want to admit it but I am going to force you to acknowledge the truth. The world knows that AAA was out of money and time. The lease holders for the buses they had were being called in and AAA started buying RJ's and not E190's either they came later after the merger for which the east has stolen every single seat! I am talking about the Canadair 50's that AAA was buying as that's the only company that would finance AAA at the time. I also read where Canadair stopped financing them too. It was PARKER and AWA's books that financed the deal on the A321's that you now operate!! Dont believe it?, contact corporate yourself its public knowledge my friend.
The issue that is coming for this entire company is the fact that I doubt that BK courts will allow the thing to move fwd with this issue hanging out in the breeze. It was not before Judge Lane until usapa very ill advised at that made a motion before the BK court. That was ignorant and now the court must address it. I am thankful for that fact because now this is one more court that must examine the validity of arbitration in this country.
Its almost over Relay!
WD at AWA
03-16-2013, 07:15 AM
#525
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
I must say that perhaps we are now moving towards common ground. Not demanding the nic or nothing shows me that YOU are willing to explore other ideas that in fact will benefit the LCC pilots as we face off with the APA. I have great respect for the APA but must admit that they will be a worthy adversary in the upcoming SLI. We must be united or WE (LCC) pilots will pay the price...Remember, there is always room for worse..
WD at AWA
03-16-2013, 10:22 AM
#527
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by tailendcharlie
I believe it was United that was instrumental in changing ALPA merger policy away from DOH....not USAir. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it....
I believe you are correct, but as you say it was a long time ago. There was a US Air guy on the committee, but I think his imput was a political quid pro quo.
03-16-2013, 10:23 AM
#528
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: AB 320 Captain
Posts: 355
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
I must say that perhaps we are now moving towards common ground. Not demanding the nic or nothing shows me that YOU are willing to explore other ideas that in fact will benefit the LCC pilots as we face off with the APA. I have great respect for the APA but must admit that they will be a worthy adversary in the upcoming SLI. We must be united or WE (LCC) pilots will pay the price...Remember, there is always room for worse..
03-16-2013, 10:32 AM
#529
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver
Ok now lets examine who did what and how the ALPA merger changed. If my old man mentality recalls it was USAIR that caused the merger policy to change from DOH to what it is today. I always get a huge laugh out of easties that cry foul at the process when it was them that caused it to change in the first place. The east is greedy as hell and will not be happy until everything and everyone is as miserable as they are.
I also LOVE the part where you east folk talk about how profitable usair is and how weak AWA was. Tell me something though if the east was so profitable why on earth was it twice bankrupt in an extremely short period of time prior to Doug Parker coming in and saving it from complete destruction???
I know you also dont want to admit it but I am going to force you to acknowledge the truth. The world knows that AAA was out of money and time. The lease holders for the buses they had were being called in and AAA started buying RJ's and not E190's either they came later after the merger for which the east has stolen every single seat! I am talking about the Canadair 50's that AAA was buying as that's the only company that would finance AAA at the time. I also read where Canadair stopped financing them too. It was PARKER and AWA's books that financed the deal on the A321's that you now operate!! Dont believe it?, contact corporate yourself its public knowledge my friend.
The issue that is coming for this entire company is the fact that I doubt that BK courts will allow the thing to move fwd with this issue hanging out in the breeze. It was not before Judge Lane until usapa very ill advised at that made a motion before the BK court. That was ignorant and now the court must address it. I am thankful for that fact because now this is one more court that must examine the validity of arbitration in this country.
Its almost over Relay!
WD at AWA
I also LOVE the part where you east folk talk about how profitable usair is and how weak AWA was. Tell me something though if the east was so profitable why on earth was it twice bankrupt in an extremely short period of time prior to Doug Parker coming in and saving it from complete destruction???
I know you also dont want to admit it but I am going to force you to acknowledge the truth. The world knows that AAA was out of money and time. The lease holders for the buses they had were being called in and AAA started buying RJ's and not E190's either they came later after the merger for which the east has stolen every single seat! I am talking about the Canadair 50's that AAA was buying as that's the only company that would finance AAA at the time. I also read where Canadair stopped financing them too. It was PARKER and AWA's books that financed the deal on the A321's that you now operate!! Dont believe it?, contact corporate yourself its public knowledge my friend.
The issue that is coming for this entire company is the fact that I doubt that BK courts will allow the thing to move fwd with this issue hanging out in the breeze. It was not before Judge Lane until usapa very ill advised at that made a motion before the BK court. That was ignorant and now the court must address it. I am thankful for that fact because now this is one more court that must examine the validity of arbitration in this country.
Its almost over Relay!
WD at AWA
But as for your rant about "the east's fault", let's look at the 190 issue. You said "E190's either they came later after the merger for which the east has stolen every single seat!" Stolen Really? The E190s went where they did as a result of, wait for it, ARBITRATION!!!! From a whiney west resolution wanting your seats now despite the conditions for getting them not being met:
"WHEREAS Arbitrator Eischen was selected to determine the fair and equitable allocation of EMB-190 aircraft as between AAA and AWA. Hearings were held over August 1 and 2, 2006. The opinion (“Eischen Award”) was published on September 5th, 2006. Arbitrator Eischen determined one-third of the new flying generated by the fifty-seven (57) EMB-190 aircraft was the fair and equitable share for the AWA pilots, however, the AWA pilots would not be afforded any EMB-190 positions until after Operational Integration; in Arbitrator Eischen’s words, his Award represented “IOUs” to the West". Integrity in action, again.
I'm sure you can provide a link to where US couldn't get financing for CRJs. Then tell me how the entire Mid Atlantic fleet of EMB 170s made it here.
Here are a couple other links for you. Education is a great thing. You should avail yourself to it. I'll be here to help when ever you need it, don't hesitate to ask.
http://old.post-gaze...2/508153-28.stm
http://jamhoff.com/PDFs/ArbitratorDecisionAward.pdf
The Financial Picture
From the evidence, it is clear enough that the merger with AWA was a meaningful factor in U.S. Airway’s emergence from bankruptcy. Together, the two companies were able to attract investments that, operating alone, they might not have secured. However, West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy "only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise"
10 is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)11 nor in any other portion of the evidence. Instead, each carrier had something to contribute. Airways, for example, was much larger. It served almost twice as many destinations as AWA and carried twice the number of passengers.12 Airways has substantially more cash on hand, following the merger agreement. AWA, for its part, brought relative success as a low cost carrier operation with a meaningful presence in the Western United States.
Airways’ "fresh start"13 included a series of steps designed to strengthen Airways’ financial situation. Among other things, it entered into concessionary bargaining with its unions, ultimately securing some $1 billion dollars per year in cost reductions. 14 Termination of certain existing defined benefit and other post-retirement benefit plans generated substantial savings.15 A 35 percent decrease in labor cost16 taken together with other cost saving measures, resulted in a positive net operating income for the second and third quarters of 2005, prior to approval of the merger agreement in September of 2005. 17 AWA, for its part, while not in bankruptcy, was attempting to confront what it regarded as a troubled and potentially perilous future, absent the merger, in the face of rising fuel costs and depressed unit revenues as a result of over capacity, among other things. It, too, needed cash.
West characterizes the merger decision on AWA’s part as a one-way economic bailout. But there is no support for this in the record; surely, the respective companies did not endorse that view. AWA concluded, according to the statements of its CEO, that "…when we looked out at our future, what we sawwasn’t good…. Assuming we couldn’t go out and restructure or raise cash, it is possible that AWA would have been facing its own Chapter 11 at some point. Employees may like to think we "saved" US but the fact is we saved each other…18
Airways’ "fresh start"13 included a series of steps designed to strengthen Airways’ financial situation. Among other things, it entered into concessionary bargaining with its unions, ultimately securing some $1 billion dollars per year in cost reductions. 14 Termination of certain existing defined benefit and other post-retirement benefit plans generated substantial savings.15 A 35 percent decrease in labor cost16 taken together with other cost saving measures, resulted in a positive net operating income for the second and third quarters of 2005, prior to approval of the merger agreement in September of 2005. 17 AWA, for its part, while not in bankruptcy, was attempting to confront what it regarded as a troubled and potentially perilous future, absent the merger, in the face of rising fuel costs and depressed unit revenues as a result of over capacity, among other things. It, too, needed cash.
West characterizes the merger decision on AWA’s part as a one-way economic bailout. But there is no support for this in the record; surely, the respective companies did not endorse that view. AWA concluded, according to the statements of its CEO, that "…when we looked out at our future, what we sawwasn’t good…. Assuming we couldn’t go out and restructure or raise cash, it is possible that AWA would have been facing its own Chapter 11 at some point. Employees may like to think we "saved" US but the fact is we saved each other…18
03-16-2013, 10:36 AM
#530
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver
The issue that is coming for this entire company is the fact that I doubt that BK courts will allow the thing to move fwd with this issue hanging out in the breeze. It was not before Judge Lane until usapa very ill advised at that made a motion before the BK court. That was ignorant and now the court must address it. I am thankful for that fact because now this is one more court that must examine the validity of arbitration in this country.
Its almost over Relay!
WD at AWA
Its almost over Relay!
WD at AWA
You guys have been saying it's almost over for about 7 years now. You may be right this time, but perhaps not in the way you thought. We'll see.
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