R57 relay

LOA 93 dropped all DC contributions to a flat 10%. Because I was about 40, my DC contribution before was about 13.5%. Guys that were older had up to a 100% DC contribution, dropping to 10%. Who was hit harder, a guy that took a 3.5% hit with about 20 years left to fly or the guy who took a 90% hit with a few years to go?

Another example. Back in the early 90s our MEC gave away our superior rigs for DL's payrates. Senior trans-Atlantic pilots weren't affected by it, their trips didn't have any rig. Junior 737 pilots were hammered. But overall the entire group received higher pay and benefits. Sound familiar?

These types of decisions are made by unions everyday. They can't make everyone happy. We were in a quagmire with no end in sight due to the TA. The merger and MOU gave us a way out and we voted yes for it.

It has been established that a new union has the right to renegotiate every section of a contract, with the responsibility of DFR, with a wide range of reasonableness.

Wiskey Driver

Ok these are not hardships which is why I asked that you define what you meant. A hardship is where the outcome of what ever the situation has you in position of not being not being able to survive. Now survive is a very strong term and slightly over used. Lets put this another way, a position where you are unable to meet your obligations.

Unions are given wide latitude in which to conduct business not change contracts. The changing of contract language requires a vote of the membership relay.

WD at AWA

R57 relay

I really can't believe you posted this. I'm beginning to believe I'm arguing with an east guy that is trying to make west pilots look bad.

So do you really believe that a 55 year old pilot that was counting on a pension and medical insurance until 65, then has it all yanked out from under him didn't have a hardship, but a 30 thirty some thing that doesn't get his 6 year jump in captain checkout did. Amazing. I'm thinking of a guy that I'd like to share your POV with, but he blew his brains out over all those things.

Changing of a contract requires a vote? Not always, my rigs were given away with out ME voting for it, at the time we had MEC ratification. But on this one you are correct, it required a vote and we voted for it. 97% on the west.

Wiskey Driver

You are missing what I am saying because you are upset and its showing by the way you are stating things. Pensions are never guaranteed even though most have this belief. There are many outside of our circle (aviation) where pensions have been terminated. In a bankruptcy they become expendable. Now ask me if I think this honorable for corporations to do and you will not only get a no from me but a HELL NO! Pensions and health ins are always on the chopping block BECAUSE they can be the difference between a companies survival or demise which is why the courts will allow their termination. You stated that your rigs were given away. I ask you by whom and if it was your MEC what did you tell them prior to their vote? Did you and the rest of the east pilots tell them no or else?? No you didnt. The RC4 was allowed to operate unchecked now weren't they??


Now you brought up this 30 something in relations to a captain upgrade. Is that all you see there or is this just more anger? See what happened it the pension and health insurance deal happened as a result of your company. Whats been done in our case is pilot on pilot violence. Oh and relay its not about the upgrade but rather what doh means to the west pilots in terms of career expectation.

WD at AWA

R57 relay

I didn't explain that well, but not out of anger but amazement. I can't believe you wrote it.

I'm not talking about the guy losing his pension, I'm talking about the fact that they union NEGOTIATED a change to the contract on the follow on plan that hurt the older guy much worse than the younger. After losing his pension the union negotiated a much larger hit for the older guy than the younger guy, with no time to recover. You compare that to the Nic? Not even close.

I get why you don't want DOH, I've stated that many times, but the Nic is the same for the east as DOH is for the west with the exception that the east is mostly older and doesn't have the time to recover from the Nic hit.

The fact is that our union negotiated a change to our contract and we voted for it. We'll see what the judge says.

When were you hired at AWA? Do you have time at another airline? I ask because I wonder what shapes your opinion.

The rig change was way before the RC4. You guys think you know our history but you don't have a clue. And you don't listen when we tell you.

glasspilot

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Please tell me you're not a licensed pilot.

ackattacker

Pensions are guaranteed. By the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation, now itself basically bankrupt.

Up until the last decade, pension termination during bankruptcy was nearly unheard of although the seeds were sown during the 90's as companies learned how to exploit pension underfunding loopholes to increase their own pay. If you asked the average person in the 90's, I'd say most would say that, yes, a Pension was a "guaranteed thing."

Legally, they are supposed to be funded in such a way that the pension fund is insulated from, and survives, a bankruptcy. The fact that they were not funded in such a way is a crime both figuratively and literally. It's a lot more than "dishonorable".

Taking away a promised pension is about as big of a "hardship" as I can possibly imagine.

tomgoodman

A WSJ reporter has written a good book on this subject:

Retirement Heist - Pension Fraud Book - Ellen Schultz

Wiskey Driver

Well the PBGC is not the same a company funded pension as its more of and insurance policy. I only state they are not set in stone because it has become common place to raid them. I agree with the rest of your post.

WD at AWA

Wiskey Driver

No relay I listen but I also know that you feel entitled to recoup your career losses at the expense of another group of pilots. Then you try and justify the east actions based upon what they lost at the hands of management and an unchecked MEC. What makes you feel that either action is correct and or justifiable?

WD at AWA