wiggy

I don't think the technical language of the MOU supports either the claim of abandonment of the Nic or the DOH proposal..."Seniority neutral" to me means "proposed and/or actually awarded, via the Nic...seniority regimes are not addressed" and does not mean "all seniority regimes including those proposed and awarded... are abandoned, or moot". Clearly the west didn't give up their right to pursue the Nic with that language....the language in fact states, IIRC that voting for the MOU should not be considered as abandoning implementation of the Nic. If there is a 3-way...the minute USAPA proposes DOH or LOS (a regime that was theoretically "abandoned" with the MOU) then the West should have the right to present the Nic....which brings up another proposal....why not present 4 lists...include the Nic...make the arbitrators earn their money.

Wiskey Driver

You can argue with him until you are blue in the face and it wont make a bit of difference. The intelligent realize just what that order stated AND there is no mention of any tossing away of any groups rights like he claims the west did. In fact she mentions this in her summation. The court was unable to reach a verdict in favor of the west argument because of once again the ripeness issue. She states clearly that she DID NOT HAVE A LIST FOR WHICH TO COMPARE so this alone terminates his argument of the west tossing away its rights.

The case still remains out there but usapa is now placing APA under the gun barrel knowing that once single carrier status achieved they (usapa) will cease to exist thus can not be sued. Believe me when I tell you that usapa will tell the APA not to worry because it will take on the lawsuit knowing full well that it can not. They tried this with the company already and that was quickly shot down. The west pilots need only wait to review what ever proposal is set forth and if the west is placed in a position worse that what was originally achieved in arbitration at that time ONLY will the west have a ripe claim.

I think the move to single carrier status will place APA in the best position to settle this by stating what it will or will not do. Using the Nic is the one and only way to ensure that all legal challenges cease.

WD at AWA

PurpleTurtle

It was ripe.. You had your trial on the merits. USAPA abandoned the Nic and so did the company. Judgement in favor of USAPA and company.

Name one document still requiring the use of the Nic... Don't give Marty any more money until he sends it to you.

R57 relay

I don't recall it that way. Go look up the actual language, there is nothing in the MOU about seniority neutral. Are you a west pilot?

LittleBoyBlew

Wiggy. In order to understand the idiosyncrasies of the east/west dilema, one needs to follow what has transpired from the beginning. The nic award was part of a transition agreement between east/west ALPA. The new MOU, NULLIFIES all previous cbas and tas up to and including all containing the nic. This is FACT. (read the MOU). If the contrary were fact, the good judge Silver would have ruled a different way. The nic is irrelevant and void of any significance. I for one predict a 3 way integration. 3 DOH listS one for east, one for west, and one for AA. Very difficult for ANYONE to claim DFR when this scenario comes the closest to seniority NEUTRAL.

R57 relay

Well, that leaves you out. Dirt calls you dumb.

"B. Breach of Duty of Fair Representation
Having resolved the outstanding evidentiary issue, the Court now turns to whether the
evidence establishes USAPA breached its duty of fair representation (“DFR”) when it
entered into the MOU. The MOU does not contain a provision adopting a particular seniority
regime. Thus, while the West Pilots’ DFR claim is ripe, it is an exceptionally difficult claim
to prove because no “new” seniority regime has been adopted."

Read it again, with out the AOL provided super-Nic glasses.

R57 relay

And the only way for the APA to avoid a DFR lawsuit. I cannot imagine a reason why they would step into this, unless they saw a glimmer of getting the best of both of us.

Wiskey Driver

No you read it again!! Its clear as day in her view. Ok so ripe claim but no list to compare. Now think about this for a second and I realize the thinking part for you is extremely difficult but try your best. RIPE CLAIM NO LIST THEN. Smart money says that a list is forthcoming now no matter what. Once said list is produced the west need only review and if they are placed in a worse position that originally given then back to court we go. GET IT YET??? Its really all very simple in construction.

WD at AWA

PS I will take your dirt/dumb insult no problem.

wiggy

Ok, there must be still a few nuances I may not understand...Still not sure of the motivation behind USAPAs resistance to single carrier status with APA...I could imagine it gives a separate USAPA sole right to present their list?...rather than be forced by APA as to what constitutes their list? (ie. -not how it is to be integrated with the APA list)....Under single carrier status could APA force a separate east/west, or the Nic to be presented? Surely out of the question would be a USAPA-modified version of a single combined east/west list...which I'm sure would warm the cockles of the West's hearts

And R-57...in a 3-way, if the west were to be under the "comforting shield" of USAPA oversight...there would have to be complete autonomy of the west reps to present their case...IOW, it couldn't be subject to interference from the east... It could not be subject to the "majority of USAPA" voting as to what the west proposes...this would be an obvious stipulation....don't you think?

It will be interesting to see what USAPA comes up with as a proposal, since their previous DOH/LOS proposal, along with the Nic, has been rendered moot, dead, or "abandoned" by judge Silver as it pertains to the MOU....and therefore, presumably, like the Nic... can't be presented in the MB process...(I'm relying on your interpretation of this R-57, equating the Nic to DOH/LOS)

I do see this latest ruling as kicking the can...USapaians can protest all they want...they can't stop a lawsuit if the Nic isn't presented in MB....The only compromise I can see is if the Nic were presented with separate east/west lists....let everyone present their case....let the arbitrators decide...

R57 relay

And there never will be! You read it again. No wait, you have to only read what AOL wants you to. Wait, let me get it for you.

'ii. Legitimate Purpose for MOU Provision
Turning to the present case, the West Pilots claim USAPA breached its duty of fair
representation by “abandoning the existing obligation to use the Nicolau Award.” (Doc. 267
at 11). For present purposes, the Court will assume such an obligation existed. Therefore,
the question is whether USAPA had a legitimate union purpose for that abandonment. As
mentioned earlier, this would be an easier inquiry if USAPA had abandoned the Nicolau
Award in favor of a different seniority regime. The Court could then compare the Nicolau
Award to the new seniority regime and evaluate USAPA’s reasons for adopting the new
regime. But the complicated state of affairs means that, at present, there is no new seniority
regime directly comparable to the Nicolau Award. And, in fact, there never will be."