Total number of newhires
06-28-2014 | 08:50 AM
#12
Flies With The Hat On
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,339
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From: Right of the Left Seat
It's the AA furloughs. Historically (fbw44 correct me of I am wrong) the AA furloughs will be put behind all on property before announcement. Not the US guys hired after announcement date. I believe historically it is all DOH after announcement.
(I can guess when you got hired TXpilot)
(I can guess when you got hired TXpilot)
"...one recognized method of integrat-
ing seniority lists is by length of service, which
is usually defined to exclude time spent on
furlough."
“Significantly, the methodology
employed by the Bloch panel did
not distinguish in any way between
furloughs completed years
before the merger and those ongo-
ing as of the merger date.”
American and the APA [argued in the 1974 American-
Trans Caribbean SLI] “that it is appropriate to distin-
guish between those in active status and those in
furlough status as of the date of the merger...
[Arbitrator Smith] refused TCA furloughees
seniority positions based on their dates of hire,
because to do so would have placed them senior
to some active American pilots... Arbitrator Smith
also rejected the APA’s contention that the TCA
pilots’ dismal recall prospects required them to be
placed behind all of the American furloughees
whose prospects for recall were quite good."
"Date of hire, too, is relevant, but also not
determinative, in Arbitrator Smith’s view. He
concluded: “What I think is called for as to
these pilot groups is a balancing of the factors of
recall prospects and dates of hire..."
"Although it can be argued
that furloughees do not
‘bring jobs to the merger’
in light of their lack of
actual employment, there
is precedent supporting their
placement on a merged list
senior to active pilots who
are hired after the merger
announcement.”
http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newm.../merge0302.pdf
ing seniority lists is by length of service, which
is usually defined to exclude time spent on
furlough."
“Significantly, the methodology
employed by the Bloch panel did
not distinguish in any way between
furloughs completed years
before the merger and those ongo-
ing as of the merger date.”
American and the APA [argued in the 1974 American-
Trans Caribbean SLI] “that it is appropriate to distin-
guish between those in active status and those in
furlough status as of the date of the merger...
[Arbitrator Smith] refused TCA furloughees
seniority positions based on their dates of hire,
because to do so would have placed them senior
to some active American pilots... Arbitrator Smith
also rejected the APA’s contention that the TCA
pilots’ dismal recall prospects required them to be
placed behind all of the American furloughees
whose prospects for recall were quite good."
"Date of hire, too, is relevant, but also not
determinative, in Arbitrator Smith’s view. He
concluded: “What I think is called for as to
these pilot groups is a balancing of the factors of
recall prospects and dates of hire..."
"Although it can be argued
that furloughees do not
‘bring jobs to the merger’
in light of their lack of
actual employment, there
is precedent supporting their
placement on a merged list
senior to active pilots who
are hired after the merger
announcement.”
http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newm.../merge0302.pdf
After the DOJ filed suit, the merger was in jeopardy. There were people that accepted the offer to work at US Airways, knowing that there was a distinct possibility that they could be working for a stand alone US Airways. It was not until the settlement date that the merger seemed certain.
POR was the effective date of the merger. That's what needs to be used. Using the announcement date would be like saying, "Hey man, I'm going to buy your car. Let me go ahead and have it and ill pay you in a few months."
POR was the effective date of the merger. That's what needs to be used. Using the announcement date would be like saying, "Hey man, I'm going to buy your car. Let me go ahead and have it and ill pay you in a few months."
You're missing the heart of the matter here texaspilot76. Are you aware of what the initial snapshot for? It is to establish Constructive Notice, which stands apart from non-adjudicated DOJ legal action. Furthermore, it is also very likely arbitrator Bloch will arbitrate the AAL list as he is listed as a preferred arbitrator by APA, USAPA and AAL. Do you expect that he will reinvent the legal interpretation of conditional notice contrary to his previous UAL and DAL rulings? Bloch already witnessed the irrationally you're advocating in the UAL SLI. He voices his frustration with the absurdity in the UAL SLI ruling.
I invite you to learn more about this subject:
Constructive Notice — n. a fiction that a person got notice even though actual notice was not
personally delivered to him/her. The law may provide that a public notice put on the courthouse
bulletin board is a substitute for actual notice. A prime example is allowing service by publication
when a spouse has left the state to avoid service (legal delivery of a legal notice) in a divorce action.
The legal advertisement of the summons in an approved newspaper is treated as constructive notice,
just as if the summons and petition had been served personally”
personally delivered to him/her. The law may provide that a public notice put on the courthouse
bulletin board is a substitute for actual notice. A prime example is allowing service by publication
when a spouse has left the state to avoid service (legal delivery of a legal notice) in a divorce action.
The legal advertisement of the summons in an approved newspaper is treated as constructive notice,
just as if the summons and petition had been served personally”
and Continental Airlines:
“The concept of a constructive notice date ("CND") is not complicated: it is the date after which any
pilot hired by either pre-*merger airline is deemed to know that he or she will be working for a
combined entity and that his or her career expectations will be a product of the success or failure of
the combined airline, irrespective of which airline hired the pilot. See, e.g., Atlas-*Polar at 9 (“The
concept of ‘Constructive Notice’ is that when newly-*hired pilots know, or should know, that their flying
careers, and specifically their seniority status, may be determined in reference to an additional group
of pilots, such pilots cannot be considered to be part of the premerger group and must be treated in a
manner consistent with what should have been their realistic expectations at the time they were
hired.”);; see also Alaska-*Jet America at 7.
By agreement of the parties in this case, the CND is the [Merger Announcement Date] MAD, May 3,
2010“
pilot hired by either pre-*merger airline is deemed to know that he or she will be working for a
combined entity and that his or her career expectations will be a product of the success or failure of
the combined airline, irrespective of which airline hired the pilot. See, e.g., Atlas-*Polar at 9 (“The
concept of ‘Constructive Notice’ is that when newly-*hired pilots know, or should know, that their flying
careers, and specifically their seniority status, may be determined in reference to an additional group
of pilots, such pilots cannot be considered to be part of the premerger group and must be treated in a
manner consistent with what should have been their realistic expectations at the time they were
hired.”);; see also Alaska-*Jet America at 7.
By agreement of the parties in this case, the CND is the [Merger Announcement Date] MAD, May 3,
2010“
“On April 15, 2008, Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines announced a merger agreement. The
merger of the two carriers formed, at the time, the largest commercial airline in the world, with 786
(Ver. 2, January 21st, 2014) Page 3
aircraft. The merged airline is called "Delta Air Lines" ("Delta Air Lines," 2008).
"The parties differ as to the application of ‚”Constructive Notice‚” in this case. For the reasons that
follow, we accept April 14, 2008, as the Constructive Notice date, under these circumstances. The
Delta Representatives accurately describe ‚”Constructive Notice‚” as shorthand for a bright line test to
determine which pilots, if any, hired by two separate but merging airlines should be treated as though
they were hired by the merged airline. The assumption is that, at some point -*-* normally the date of
the merger announcement -*-* a new hire at one of the merging carriers will be on‚ ”Constructive Notice‚”
that his or her career expectations are reasonably considered to be those of someone hired by the
new carrier. For that reason, Constructive Notice pilots are typically placed in date-*of-*hire order below
all other pilots from the two merging airlines" (Bloch, 2008).
merger of the two carriers formed, at the time, the largest commercial airline in the world, with 786
(Ver. 2, January 21st, 2014) Page 3
aircraft. The merged airline is called "Delta Air Lines" ("Delta Air Lines," 2008).
"The parties differ as to the application of ‚”Constructive Notice‚” in this case. For the reasons that
follow, we accept April 14, 2008, as the Constructive Notice date, under these circumstances. The
Delta Representatives accurately describe ‚”Constructive Notice‚” as shorthand for a bright line test to
determine which pilots, if any, hired by two separate but merging airlines should be treated as though
they were hired by the merged airline. The assumption is that, at some point -*-* normally the date of
the merger announcement -*-* a new hire at one of the merging carriers will be on‚ ”Constructive Notice‚”
that his or her career expectations are reasonably considered to be those of someone hired by the
new carrier. For that reason, Constructive Notice pilots are typically placed in date-*of-*hire order below
all other pilots from the two merging airlines" (Bloch, 2008).
“On April 15, 2008, Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines announced a merger agreement. The
merger of the two carriers formed, at the time, the largest commercial airline in the world, with 786
(Ver. 2, January 21st, 2014) Page 3
aircraft. The merged airline is called "Delta Air Lines" ("Delta Air Lines," 2008).
"The parties differ as to the application of ‚”Constructive Notice‚” in this case. For the reasons that
follow, we accept April 14, 2008, as the Constructive Notice date, under these circumstances. The
Delta Representatives accurately describe ‚”Constructive Notice‚” as shorthand for a bright line test to
determine which pilots, if any, hired by two separate but merging airlines should be treated as though
they were hired by the merged airline. The assumption is that, at some point -*-* normally the date of
the merger announcement -*-* (notice the four extra dashes and asterisks for added emphasis?)
a new hire at one of the merging carriers will be on‚ ”Constructive Notice‚”
that his or her career expectations are reasonably considered to be those of someone hired by the
new carrier. For that reason, Constructive Notice pilots are typically placed in date-*of-*hire order below
all other pilots from the two merging airlines" (Bloch, 2008).
merger of the two carriers formed, at the time, the largest commercial airline in the world, with 786
(Ver. 2, January 21st, 2014) Page 3
aircraft. The merged airline is called "Delta Air Lines" ("Delta Air Lines," 2008).
"The parties differ as to the application of ‚”Constructive Notice‚” in this case. For the reasons that
follow, we accept April 14, 2008, as the Constructive Notice date, under these circumstances. The
Delta Representatives accurately describe ‚”Constructive Notice‚” as shorthand for a bright line test to
determine which pilots, if any, hired by two separate but merging airlines should be treated as though
they were hired by the merged airline. The assumption is that, at some point -*-* normally the date of
the merger announcement -*-* (notice the four extra dashes and asterisks for added emphasis?)
a new hire at one of the merging carriers will be on‚ ”Constructive Notice‚”
that his or her career expectations are reasonably considered to be those of someone hired by the
new carrier. For that reason, Constructive Notice pilots are typically placed in date-*of-*hire order below
all other pilots from the two merging airlines" (Bloch, 2008).
be used to integrate their seniority lists with America West Airlines:
“Mr. Katz: The certified list is May 19. [2005]. Chairman Nicolau: Okay.” … “Mr. Katz: … May 19th,
which is of course the announcement of the merger, and the constructive notice date.” ("Nicolau
hearing transcripts,," 2006, December 5)
DAL, UAL and LCC mergers all defined constructive notice relative to their respective
Merger Announcement Dates. The above quotes exemplify that an industry standard method for
determining whether or not pilot cohorts have pre-*merger career expectations exists. Thus, this
traditional Constructive Notice Date method for seniority integration cannot not coincide with
American Airlines December 9th, 2013 Plan of Reorganization. If USAPA and APA respect how
Integrated Seniority Lists have historically delineated pre-* and post-*merger pilots, than the
subjects of furlough protection snapshot and ISL processes are distinctively different and cannot
be intermixed.
Some may believe that the AAL Constructive Notice occurred as early as Doug Parker's
unprecedented Conditional Labor Plan Agreement with APA on April 13, 2012. This and Mr.
Parker's other CLP agreements with APFA & TWU constructively joined American workforce
career expectations to the US Airways Group. APA’s 2012 business agreement with LCC moved
AA pilot career expectations away from many significant work rule changes such as both
79-*seat scope and ~400 AA pilot furloughs that implied a net operational, airframe and ASM
reduction.
Plan of Reorganization based Constructive Notice does not reasonably overshadow the
Merger Announcement Date. Yet, some may believe that this seniority integration cannot
traditionally identify Constructive Notice because of DOJ legal action to block the American
Airlines and US Airways merger. However, each of the DAL, UAL and LCC mergers were also
subject to DOJ review. Generally, any pending merger not subject to DOJ lawsuit is absent DOJ
approval, which equates to a DOJ objection. Put differently, the DOJ by default maintains “pocket
veto” status, and is generally in a state of objection until it approves any merger or acquisition.
Conditional notice is generally based on the stated intentions of airline management, not the fluid
announcements of any plaintiff, claimant, or complainant. Accusations by Department of Justice
must not be confused with concrete Congressional, Executive or Judicial Action. A POR based
CND cannot redefine such a basic seniority integration function.
A MAD based CND is the established and fair method of identifying pre-merger career
expectations for integrating seniority lists.
To abort this method would be discrediting.
I hope this helps bring greater understanding to this subject.
Last edited by flybywire44; 06-28-2014 at 09:18 AM.
06-28-2014 | 01:06 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
I would hope the furloughs would slot in in their list with their relatively DOH seniority and then merged from there (however it's decided). I don't feel it's fair to place them behind someone hired just prior to the merger with a couple months on property, personally.
Especially with all the movement involved in the near future, everyone should move up.
I don't believe there are any specific "west" hires, it's all a "3rd list" after the US/AW merger.
Especially with all the movement involved in the near future, everyone should move up.
I don't believe there are any specific "west" hires, it's all a "3rd list" after the US/AW merger.
06-28-2014 | 01:51 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
Furthermore, it is also very likely arbitrator Bloch will arbitrate the AAL list as he is listed as a preferred arbitrator by APA, USAPA and AAL. Do you expect that he will reinvent the legal interpretation of conditional notice contrary to his previous UAL and DAL rulings? Bloch already witnessed the irrationally you're advocating in the UAL SLI. He voices his frustration with the absurdity in the UAL SLI ruling.
06-28-2014 | 03:26 PM
#17
Flies With The Hat On
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
From: Right of the Left Seat
Quote:
Originally Posted by flybywire44
Furthermore, it is also very likely arbitrator Bloch will arbitrate the AAL list as he is listed as a preferred arbitrator by APA, USAPA and AAL. Do you expect that he will reinvent the legal interpretation of conditional notice contrary to his previous UAL and DAL rulings? Bloch already witnessed the irrationally you're advocating in the UAL SLI. He voices his frustration with the absurdity in the UAL SLI ruling.
Off topic, but have you read Bloch's award in the US dispatchers SLI? It's as if he and Nicolau were talking about two different mergers. I liked Bloch's version better.
Originally Posted by flybywire44
Furthermore, it is also very likely arbitrator Bloch will arbitrate the AAL list as he is listed as a preferred arbitrator by APA, USAPA and AAL. Do you expect that he will reinvent the legal interpretation of conditional notice contrary to his previous UAL and DAL rulings? Bloch already witnessed the irrationally you're advocating in the UAL SLI. He voices his frustration with the absurdity in the UAL SLI ruling.
Off topic, but have you read Bloch's award in the US dispatchers SLI? It's as if he and Nicolau were talking about two different mergers. I liked Bloch's version better.
Thanks.
06-28-2014 | 03:29 PM
#18
Flies With The Hat On
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
From: Right of the Left Seat
I would hope the furloughs would slot in in their list with their relatively DOH seniority and then merged from there (however it's decided). I don't feel it's fair to place them behind someone hired just prior to the merger with a couple months on property, personally.
Especially with all the movement involved in the near future, everyone should move up.
I don't believe there are any specific "west" hires, it's all a "3rd list" after the US/AW merger.
Especially with all the movement involved in the near future, everyone should move up.
I don't believe there are any specific "west" hires, it's all a "3rd list" after the US/AW merger.
This greatly upset active CAL pilots placed junior to the furloughs who argue that these UAL furloughs would have continued to be furloughed absent the merger.
I am certain we'll at least see LOS for AA/West furloughs.
06-28-2014 | 07:59 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
06-29-2014 | 04:16 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
From: A320 FO
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