Dharma

Allegheny, what you wrote just isn't true about ALPA reducing dues. At one time the dues rate was 2.35%. It declined to something slightly above 2% (I forget the exact value and when), then to 1.95%, and most recently (in 2012) to 1.9%. ALPA, like most unions was operating under considerable pressure after 9/11. Airlines and pilot labor groups were disappearing because of bankruptcies, and income was shrinking because of pay cuts. You know the story. But since then, they have gradually fought their way out of the hole they were in and today the national structure is about 60% of its former size. The committee structure has been reorganized to be more efficient and responsive to the membership.

It's not perfect, but every year since the bottom after 9/11 they've made progress.

AFTrainerGuy

I for one hope we go. I don't believe ALPA is some savior or magic bullet though. I hope we're smart enough to change the Reps too in the move. If not, yeah, it's just a different shingle over the door. But even that might just be a little of what we need. We continually lag because we're a bunch of small groups (LAA, LUS, LAW, TWA, 3rd Listers, etc.), instead of one group working together. Changing the shingle can be the start of unity. It's time to come together and work toward the future instead of always arguing about the past. Just look at that CnR forum. Nothing but arguments about who "saved" who, who voted yes or no, etc, etc, etc.. I know, very vocal minority, but they highlight the underlying problems here. It's time to move on or we will never be industry leading. We are our own worst enemy. So, In my opinion, a little extra dues, which can probably be negotiated down, just might be the symbolic gesture we need to move forward. Seriously, something has to change and right now this just ain't working.

Dharma

Allegheny, you do know that LM-2 values do not equal W-2 values don't you? It's apples to (sometimes) watermelons. Just to keep the facts straight, someone else may bring up IRS form 990 values for ALPA leadership positions.

Form 990 ≠ LM-2 ≠ W-2.

They are all very different with different input metrics.

gzsg

ALPA is a nightmare. A money wasting blob.

They will reduce dues when you Senator takes a pay cut.

Ask any ALPA pilot what our top ten goals are and where they are written.

Bootleg

Oh YA! They (ALPA) did such a f@ck ing great job for us over at Eagle--Man! That 16 year, pay index averaged, no strike, whipsaw 4 against each other contract we received via-rectum was the BOMB BEAT!

Better think that one over fellas.


ps. as far as burying the hatchet--nah---because see-the thing is-when you f@ck over a pilot group, you're also f@cking over their families, you know-wife and kids kind of thing. That hatred, my uninformed friends, lasts F O R E V E R.

dogpilot

This appears as ignorance to me. ALPA always argues that ALPA is you, the pilots in each represented group by their elected Mec and Lec reps. This will be similar individuals who have perceptively failed in your eyes, or in the eyes of others, who will be elected. I think you're naive to believe changing unions will change your contract appreciably. Insanity it would appear, cyclical repetition.

aa73

As I've mentioned before, if you are coming from a regional ALPA airline, it is a completely different animal from legacy airline ALPA. Night and day different. Always been that way. That's a common mistake most regional pilots make when talking about ALPA.

ALPA will always ensure that the legacy pilot career remains at the top of the professional ladder -that's their job and it must be that way, since that's the flow of an airline pilot career.

dogpilot

The past doesn't support your theory, as most international carriers were out paying, until recent changes in contracts, not due to negotiating power, but rather huge money making of he airlines, the domestic airlines. I think your head is heavily buried in the sand.

aa73

I disagree. Legacy US airlines represented by ALPA have historically had **overall** better contracts than AA pilots ever had. Barring the BK years, in which every airline pilot group gets hammered no matter who is representing them - those are the facts.

I think APA has had its head buried in (quick)sand ever since 1963. They have never gotten us an ILC. Whether or not you agree with what I say about ALPA is immaterial - the point is, APA has consistently failed over and over again. When that happens, it's time to look elsewhere and replace them. Not doing anything about it, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

At least I am embarked on a movement to get this changed. It's the pilots who constantly complain about APA, but who refuse to do anything about it, that truly doom us and represents the classic AA ancestral worship concept that APA is famous for.

ALPA is far from perfect but I'm 100% sure they will do a better job than APA ever did.

And finally, it is no secret that management would much rather negotiate against a small, broken in house union with limited assets and resources than a globally recognized international union that represents thousands of airline pilots worldwide. That by itself justifies a return to ALPA.

Dharma

ALPA legacy carriers have done better than than many independent carriers over the long run. The past decade though has been difficult on all of them, and the climb out of the 9/11 hole has been long.

American pilots should consider this if you are uncertain about merging with ALPA:

1. ALPA political influence in Washington is already strong for a labor group, and would be made stronger with 15,000 more voices. The influence and presence of some independent labor groups is a distant second place.
2. Our voice within ICAO and IFALPA would improve equally so. I assume you have oneworld pilot group connections which could also help with creating closer ties within the global community of pilots. Globalization can't be ignored and any one pilot group can't really make a difference alone. Both Delta and United have regular talks with their alliance partner pilot groups.
3. American pilots would have more resources and shared experience to help them in contractual improvements. That's no guarantee of success, but it is opportunity. What you do with it is up to you.