Yes. I'm surprised, too, that you weren't flamed because with a flame bait question like yours, you would expect that. If you have intelligent, pertinent questions, we're glad to help. If you're going to be antagonistic, go over to the Delta page and flame them. We're pretty busy dealing with more important things than dealing with inane posters like you.

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A little bit of advice:
If you're trying to better your situation and the overall conditions by discouraging pilots from joining Atlas, therefor increasing your chances of better pay and QOL... by yelling and them demeaning them, you will merely convince the new pilots that the problem lies with entrenched, bitter pilots that can't get hired anywhere else. It will destroy the credibility of your argument, and encourage them to join anyway, with the distorted idea that they can somehow race to the top of the seniority list at The Amazon Empire that is forming while everyone else leaves for green pastures or festers in their rage.

The term whipshaw is bouncing around. It's a saw with a handle on both ends so it cuts in both directions. Amazon is pulling you in both (multiple) directions.

Here's how it will work. Pay attention, there will be a test later.

My example is FedEx and their feeders. Fedex owns the ENTIRE feeder fleet. The managing (shell) companies, MAC, Empire, etc manage pilots, mechanics, etc at a MUCH lower pay rate and QOL under order from FedEx.

The shell companies are EXPENDABLE. Try to form a union, have a slow down, or a sick out, the shell company goes away, all routes and airplanes are transferred to one or more other shell companies and the flights continue without a hitch, the rowdy pilots are all taken care of in one fell swoop and will be an example to the rest of the feeders.

Amazon is the new FedEx.
There will be no mainline. Southern, Kalitta, Atlas, (and whoever I can't remember right now) will all be expendable begging for contracts, all of the airplanes will be leased by Amazon and transferable between certificates and the cycle will continue.

You are in the process of an industry disruption, and it's not going to get better.

You want to scare me?
Don't tell me that the job is hard. All cargo jobs are hard.

Tell me there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Tell me that there is no place for lapdogs on the "C" level thrones. Tell me that the golden age is over.

 

Not Quite.. We own Southern, and Kalliata is a privately held company- and thus far amazon wants large shares of the company that are flying the jets.

Furthering- why would Amazon buy 30-40% of an airline shares, just to whipsaw and watch the company go out of business.

The reason why Amazon purchase shares, was to prevent fed ex or ups from buying atlas or ATSG during this period, thus having to start over.

There are only 2 players for Amazon. ATSG, and Atlas. Both are 1224 local..

There are neither the planes or the pilots to
Play the whip saw games. We had to scour the world looking for 20 767's then convert them into freighters- etc etc, far more challenging the grabbing some old Turbo props laying around.

Atlas purchased southern long ago to start a 777 operation for Amazon undoubtedly, which will also grow ( assuming they have crews )

I highly doubt. Amazon and DHL want Atlas and ATSG go into the 4th without a pilot contract- maybe I'm wrong.

The world isn't getting smaller, and there are millions of pounds of freight to move- but not emough pilots, and planes to build quick enough.

 

I think you make a great point about the haters that always post in this section. If you even say one thing in disagreement with them, the flaming starts. As for your whipsaw argument, I don't see how Amazon can whipsaw around without the pilots going with the different companies. Kallitta would not be able to man the Atlas flying and Atlas could not man ABX, ect.

 

There is no light at the end of the tunnel. There is no place for lapdogs on the "C" level thrones. The golden age is over...... ....there.


As mentioned above, part of the difference is that this is not the 90's when people turned down UPS and FedEx before their contracts expanded. The landscape has changed substantially and the assumptions are not the same in these equations.

Many pilots who can easily be hired elsewhere were holding out in hopes that the situation would improve because of the positive aspects of the job. This place had huge potential. This management team, however, is making one wrong move after another and may even be intentionally trying to bankrupt the company....much like they did 7yrs ago.

FedEx, interestingly enough, beat UPS and bought TNT extending their goal presence. Both carriers continue to expand, mean while DHL (the global powerhouse) continues to loose market share each month using their old tactics......even if you don't have knowledge of the tactics or strategy employed by these companies, the results are simple.

These guys will either adapt or fade away with the past and another company will expand to fill the vacuum left behind.

 

Here's my experience:
I applied at Atlas last summer. While waiting to hear I read this entire thread. I interviewed December 2, and was placed in the pool the Tuesday after that. My interview experience was great. Everyone who I came in contact with was straightforward. Everyone answered all of the tough questions asked on here with what I believe were good answers, at least as far as they could know. There wasn't any inflated numbers for pay, and the contract issue was discussed in a straightforward manner.
I continued reading this page, as well as the news, and any other sources I could find. Atlas seems like a great company overall, with a great group of employees who would be great to work with.

I declined a class date today after weighing all of the above. For me, emphasis on me, not anyone else, it is above my risk threshold from a career standpoint. Your situation may be different. But what I think the Atlas guys are saying is to do your homework. If they pull through this rough patch, it will be a fantastic place to work.

 

Falcondrivr, it sounds like you made a well informed and wise choice.
Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

They called you today for a class date ? Which one ?

 

Feb 27. 767. K called yesterday.

 

You have no intention of going to Atlas, expect to get flamed with an antagonistic question, and you lack the stomach for the drama, yet you come onto this thread and sling insults at us for trying to help fellow pilots avoid making a huge career mistake.

What motivation do you really have for stirring up such antagonism at a company that you will never have anything to do with?

I'm in the final years of a three airline career and I'm doing my best to help others pilots make good decisions and help my fellow crew members win the biggest battle of our professional lives. We know so much better than you ever will what whipsawing is. We've lived it for decades and we have a strategy in place to defeat it. You would know this if you had taken the time to read this whole thread. DHL and the Amazon flying have nothing in common with FedEx other than we both fly jets. If you had a real interest in our situation, you could have easily taught yourself about things here prior to displaying such a lack of understanding. And had you entered this thread with that knowledge and reasonable comments, we would have responded with constructive replies. Instead you came to harass.

To answer your original question: There are 1500 pilots with 1500 different answers to your question. Many are leaving. 34 last month alone. Many have interviews and/or class dates or pending class dates. Many more are trying very hard to leave. For lots of pilots, it's too late to leave (i.e. 62 years+). Some can't leave for some reason. And a very, very few like it here or don't care what happens. But, according to recent votes and surveys, 99.7 of us agree that things here suck and want to fight for a better contract whether we are leaving or not. But it's going to be a long fight that is fraught with difficulties and hazards for new hires. Furloughs, training problems, low pay, weak contractual protections, and work rule violations are epidemic. Our goal on this thread is to warn potential Atlas applicants about these issues and encourage them to stay away. THAT is how professional pilots work to help each other.

Maybe someday, you'll understand.

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