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Old 02-02-2024, 10:12 PM
  #20281  
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I don't work for them but Atlas isnt known as an airline to pick up other peoples slack and they take training events seriously. Especially with the accident not too long ago with that guy who hid his busts and training problems. Having trouble on the arrival/approach phase is the exact same scenario as that crash coincidentally. It's not uncommon to struggle with energy management in your first jet it happened to me too. Did your airplane have VNAV. What's a soft limit? You never made it to the line check? You won't get anywhere blaming the training department on your struggles though. The good news is you have a type rating in something.If it's a CRJ maybe you could use it to go fly right seat in a corporate challenger don't some of the types cross over?
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Old 02-03-2024, 05:01 AM
  #20282  
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Originally Posted by Jetbane View Post
It mainly was due to a few different reasons but came down to arrival to approach transition with speed going down and slowing down for me.
Training in my opinion wasn't the best with that company in general. I have done 7 other checkrides and also trained almost 20 people for checkrides during instructing with a 90% student first time pass rate. I can see when a place is lacking in proper training.
EhÖ.no.
Iím not liking anything Iím reading here and being Ďupfrontí about it isnít going to help you.
Only you can fix you.
Atlas is not a Ďsecond chanceí or Ďsecond choiceí kinda place.
Weíve had a fatal 76 crash with plenty of blame passed around but the main cause being an FO who lived in a state of perpetual denial as far as his skills were concerned.

Train wreck in training

Also let me explain something about 121 training, the goal is not to offer the best training.
The goal is average quality at an average cost with an acceptable drop out rate.
Itís not meant to guarantee 100% pass rate.
If you canít pass IOE at a regional you will be murdered on the line at Atlas.
There will be very little enthusiasm to babysit you through an Arrival and an Approach in a country where nobody on the frequency speaks conversational English.
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Old 02-03-2024, 05:18 AM
  #20283  
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Originally Posted by Twincezzna View Post
I don't work for them but Atlas isnt known as an airline to pick up other peoples slack and they take training events seriously. Especially with the accident not too long ago with that guy who hid his busts and training problems. Having trouble on the arrival/approach phase is the exact same scenario as that crash coincidentally. It's not uncommon to struggle with energy management in your first jet it happened to me too. Did your airplane have VNAV. What's a soft limit? You never made it to the line check? You won't get anywhere blaming the training department on your struggles though. The good news is you have a type rating in something.If it's a CRJ maybe you could use it to go fly right seat in a corporate challenger don't some of the types cross over?
Most of them has vnav but at that time, no. Was trying to get used to without Vnav. Soft limit is the amount of hrs accumulate but never getting a line check. It was supposed to be on the last day of a trip but LCA decided not to do it due to the first leg not going well. At the end, the LCA did say the legs after were perfectly fine for a line check to be passed but due to the first leg, he couldn't do the line check.
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Old 02-03-2024, 08:02 AM
  #20284  
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Originally Posted by Jetbane View Post
It mainly was due to a few different reasons but came down to arrival to approach transition with speed going down and slowing down for me.
Training in my opinion wasn't the best with that company in general. I have done 7 other checkrides and also trained almost 20 people for checkrides during instructing with a 90% student first time pass rate. I can see when a place is lacking in proper training.
Ok, many, many things going on here in your post. Let me say this, and donít take this the wrong way dude. I am saying this merely to help you going forward, not trying to drag you down. Only trying to build you up.

121 is the big leagues. Itís not general aviation CFI work anymore. I was also a CFI in the beginning of my career. Took my job very seriously and always tried to apply the fundamentals of instruction 100% of the time. I had a pass rate similar to yours. When I went to my regional, I knew going in to not expect many of the instructors to have a passion for teaching. And turns out, many of them didnít. There were a few that I could tell truly enjoyed teaching. But what Iíve learned is that airline training is a freaking firehose, and they really do not have time to teach you everything. A part of the test for you in training and on the line is seeing how much initiative you take. Did you prepare for the flight that morning or the night before in the hotel room? Or were you out at the bar till 1am? Did you go over the company pages, look over the expected arrivals/approaches/departures, expected taxi routing, etc. etc. etc. etc? Did you look over the weather to expect? Did you chair fly your callouts/profiles?

They certainly do expect you to fill in the gaps a lot. I disagreed with that mentality at first, but as I got deeper into the program and got to the line, I started to realize that as professionals, we have to strive to be the best we can. Itís expected of us. Every single day. Learn as much as we can. Every single flight. This comes in the form of self-debriefs. Self-critiques. Take what you learned with helping students in GA, and aggressively apply that to helping yourself get through your first 121 job. There are gonna be plenty of days when you will feel behind. It happens to all of us. With time and experience in a jet, you will begin to feel very confident.

121 is a completely different animal than 91 GA. Thereís very little comparison to be honest. And yea you may sometimes get unlucky and have a real douche bag of an instructor/check airmen, etc. Iíve had plenty of them. I know it sucks. But whatever you do, do not blame them for your failures. Period. It will not help you. At all. I am saying this in hopes that you take it and learn from it.
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Old 02-03-2024, 08:39 AM
  #20285  
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Originally Posted by Jetbane View Post
It mainly was due to a few different reasons but came down to arrival to approach transition with speed going down and slowing down for me.
Training in my opinion wasn't the best with that company in general. I have done 7 other checkrides and also trained almost 20 people for checkrides during instructing with a 90% student first time pass rate. I can see when a place is lacking in proper training.
It will not be a good strategy on your next job interviews to blame the system for your failures. While you may be accurate in your assessment, it isn't going to win any points in an interview. You need to own your failures, acknowledge that you learned from them and move on. You need to put down some success in advanced training systems in order to recover and advance if 121 is your goal.
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:27 PM
  #20286  
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Originally Posted by Atlasvet View Post
It will not be a good strategy on your next job interviews to blame the system for your failures. While you may be accurate in your assessment, it isn't going to win any points in an interview. You need to own your failures, acknowledge that you learned from them and move on. You need to put down some success in advanced training systems in order to recover and advance if 121 is your goal.
I definitely was not going to blame anyone but me for what had happened when it came to interviews. Its just at this point, what advance training system do you suggest is the next option?
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:42 PM
  #20287  
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Originally Posted by Cleared4appch View Post
Ok, many, many things going on here in your post. Let me say this, and donít take this the wrong way dude. I am saying this merely to help you going forward, not trying to drag you down. Only trying to build you up.

121 is the big leagues. Itís not general aviation CFI work anymore. I was also a CFI in the beginning of my career. Took my job very seriously and always tried to apply the fundamentals of instruction 100% of the time. I had a pass rate similar to yours. When I went to my regional, I knew going in to not expect many of the instructors to have a passion for teaching. And turns out, many of them didnít. There were a few that I could tell truly enjoyed teaching. But what Iíve learned is that airline training is a freaking firehose, and they really do not have time to teach you everything. A part of the test for you in training and on the line is seeing how much initiative you take. Did you prepare for the flight that morning or the night before in the hotel room? Or were you out at the bar till 1am? Did you go over the company pages, look over the expected arrivals/approaches/departures, expected taxi routing, etc. etc. etc. etc? Did you look over the weather to expect? Did you chair fly your callouts/profiles?

They certainly do expect you to fill in the gaps a lot. I disagreed with that mentality at first, but as I got deeper into the program and got to the line, I started to realize that as professionals, we have to strive to be the best we can. Itís expected of us. Every single day. Learn as much as we can. Every single flight. This comes in the form of self-debriefs. Self-critiques. Take what you learned with helping students in GA, and aggressively apply that to helping yourself get through your first 121 job. There are gonna be plenty of days when you will feel behind. It happens to all of us. With time and experience in a jet, you will begin to feel very confident.

121 is a completely different animal than 91 GA. Thereís very little comparison to be honest. And yea you may sometimes get unlucky and have a real douche bag of an instructor/check airmen, etc. Iíve had plenty of them. I know it sucks. But whatever you do, do not blame them for your failures. Period. It will not help you. At all. I am saying this in hopes that you take it and learn from it.
I really appreciate the insight and yes, I did took pride in my CFI work and I truly cared for each and ever one of my student's success. Which is why I had done check instructor work for the 141 school I worked at at the end. I understand what you are saying. I did see that the 121 world is completly different for training and I understand why they do it that way for sure.

I did take the initiative from everthing from pre planning for the entire day the night before and my LCA's actally saw that and mentioned, that I have been putting the work in and not to worry and I will soon be on the line with the efforts that I have been putting in. looking at weather, briefing the day, doing the callouts, etc were my strong suit from my POV and it seemed like it showed when it came to the real world. I only blame myself for things I couldn't get in time however, I feel and also from what my LCA's have said to me, I think with a bit more time, it would've been there. I just need to rely more on the training that was provided and try not to please each LCA of their technique of doing things. It was my fault for trying to adapt too much and should've just stick to one way.
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Old 02-03-2024, 05:44 PM
  #20288  
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Again, some tough love here, but failing IOE at a regional is one of the biggest red flags you can have on your training record. It is extremely rare not to complete IOE, statistically it used to be the least failed training set under part 121. That as your previous event will disqualify you from almost every job out there, for now.

You need to take pretty much any job that will take you as long as it's 135/121/91K, and get a few years of successful training events under your belt before even considering applying elsewhere. Right now you are a poison pill on paper to recruiters.
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Old 02-04-2024, 02:56 AM
  #20289  
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Originally Posted by Jetbane View Post
I got out of flight instructing recently. Joined a regional and got out of sim and LOE. Did not make it out of IOE as I hit their soft limit and couldn't get the IOE completed. My plan is to be very forward as to what happened and show that I had learned from it.
I have applied to a few corporate positions didn't hear much from them; but was really interested in Atlas.
total time 1630
restricted ATP (45hrs of XC time will make me eligible for unrestricted).
1 checkride fail which was the first 121 checkride in the SIM.
Any advice would also be appreciated
Failing OE after a checkride failure is pretty big. Nothing is so big that you can't recover, though.

Why it's a big deal: Instead of getting nerves on a checkride that you train out of and overcome, your history paints an opposite picture. You managed to train up just enough to get through the ride, but you just couldn't sustain competence long enough on the line. It's ugly. That's the ugly truth.

Recovery: The good news is that you can recover, move onward and completely blow past people like me. You need to prove you can get through training. Before you do that you need an honest assessment of what's getting between you and your desired pperformance. Everyone can offer advice, but only you can come to grips with whatever is going on in your head. Do that before you hit another new hire class.

Once you work out whatever is going on inside your head, everything else will drop into line. Don't stress. Don't be embarrassed. Get answers. Move forward.
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Old 02-04-2024, 03:19 AM
  #20290  
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Originally Posted by Jetbane View Post
It mainly was due to a few different reasons but came down to arrival to approach transition with speed going down and slowing down for me.
Training in my opinion wasn't the best with that company in general. I have done 7 other checkrides and also trained almost 20 people for checkrides during instructing with a 90% student first time pass rate. I can see when a place is lacking in proper training.
We're going to tear you apart if you come here in your current frame of mind.

Struggles with energy management are symptoms of a lack of situational awareness. We all sometimes get caught high and fast, but we figure ways out of it. You can train someone to get through a checkride by rote, but you can't fly in the real world by sticking only to rote procedure. Some places need you stay fast. Other places shortcut you off of arrivals early.

So if I was quietly pretending to snooze in the third seat I'd be wondering why you don't see these things coming, why you aren't able to dig yourself out of a hole once you're in it and what other situations would overwhelm you. Then I'd be looking at whether you had a confidence issue, a fundamental gap in learning, or if you were being less than honest about something.

Confidence issues can spiral. A student will foul up something minor. They get a correction. Then they'll fixate obsessively on that correction to a point where they lose something more important. They'll get corrected, fixate, etc. The cycle repeats until a candidate implodes. Many of us set of gates or firebreaks in our minds to ensure we are making the situation react to our decisions rather than have our decisions react to the situation. This is simply keeping the event's initiative.

Gaps in learning can be fixed.

You cite your experience as a CFI. Would you have passed yourself?

Last edited by Elevation; 02-04-2024 at 03:58 AM.
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