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Logging Heavy "Augmented" Crew Time

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Logging Heavy "Augmented" Crew Time

Old 08-29-2010, 08:08 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer View Post
Let me get this straight. If your the "bunkie" (relief pilot, IRO, whatever you want to call the position) and you're on a scheduled break in either a crew bunk or a designated rest area, you're logging flight time ? You might as well log a few shuttle orbits and some supersonic flight in the Concorde while you're at it.
Surely, you jest.

I do a bit of heavy crew flying, some of it in the ultra long haul category, and I can assure you that you log all of it as flight time. Of course, only one Capt is the PIC. All of your time aloft goes into your crew rest requirements too. How else could it be? You don't subtract the time in the bunk from your rest regulations.
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Old 02-28-2021, 05:13 AM
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Interesting debate over this topic in the FedEx sub forum. After 11 years is there an industry standard yet?

From what I’ve gathered it’s split down the middle: those augmented FOs that log SIC the whole flight and those that only log SIC while in either of the seats.

TIA
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
Interesting debate over this topic in the FedEx sub forum. After 11 years is there an industry standard yet?

From what I’ve gathered it’s split down the middle: those augmented FOs that log SIC the whole flight and those that only log SIC while in either of the seats.
If you're at FDX it's 99.9% likely that your logbook is just a vanity exercise... do what floats your boat.

If you're someone might interview again some day, I'd only log non-seat time if you're the PIC you signed for the ship, otherwise just time in seat. That's my perspective as someone who used to hire pilots... not really happy to see people logging grey area time, that might speak to your operational philosophy or character. Prefer to see the conservative approach. There are plenty of good ways to demonstrate your initiative and can-do attitude to a potential employer, but P-51 time is not one of them.
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:11 PM
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The IRO on that long flight is still required to file an ASAP report should an incident occur, and is still on the hook to the FAA as a member of that crew. He's listed in the flight log as crew, and on the flight release. During the course of any given flight, he may sit in the IRO seat for the duration, or may spend much of the trip in the left, and or right seat. Depending on the operator, a SIC may be along on the trip for legality, without much in the way of actual responsibility. Or he may be occupied much of the time. He is still a member of that crew, performing flight duty, and that block time will count against his flight time limitations. He is legally a part of that crew, and acting as a required crew member under the regulations under which the flight is operated. If a pilot gets up for a break and is relieved by another, the former isn't suddenly deadheading. He's still part of the crew, assigned by the certificate holder to duty as a crew member.

It's hardly parker pen experience.
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Old 02-28-2021, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
The IRO on that long flight is still required to file an ASAP report should an incident occur, and is still on the hook to the FAA as a member of that crew. He's listed in the flight log as crew, and on the flight release. During the course of any given flight, he may sit in the IRO seat for the duration, or may spend much of the trip in the left, and or right seat. Depending on the operator, a SIC may be along on the trip for legality, without much in the way of actual responsibility. Or he may be occupied much of the time. He is still a member of that crew, performing flight duty, and that block time will count against his flight time limitations. He is legally a part of that crew, and acting as a required crew member under the regulations under which the flight is operated. If a pilot gets up for a break and is relieved by another, the former isn't suddenly deadheading. He's still part of the crew, assigned by the certificate holder to duty as a crew member.

It's hardly parker pen experience.
I feel like the confusion could all be solved with a 121 equivalent of “other time” like the USAF uses to encompass time when not in the seat.
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Old 02-28-2021, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
If you're at FDX it's 99.9% likely that your logbook is just a vanity exercise... do what floats your boat.

If you're someone might interview again some day, I'd only log non-seat time if you're the PIC you signed for the ship, otherwise just time in seat. That's my perspective as someone who used to hire pilots... not really happy to see people logging grey area time, that might speak to your operational philosophy or character. Prefer to see the conservative approach. There are plenty of good ways to demonstrate your initiative and can-do attitude to a potential employer, but P-51 time is not one of them.
Wait so I need to remove the p-51 dual from my logbook to get hired? Lol
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Old 03-01-2021, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
I feel like the confusion could all be solved with a 121 equivalent of “other time” like the USAF uses to encompass time when not in the seat.
14 CFR 121 does not prescribe the logging of flight time.

That would be 14 CFR 61.51, which has nothing to do with Part 121.

There is FAA Chief Legal Counsel interpretation available which points to logging time for that time only when one is assigned duty.

In most long range 121 flying, each crew member is assigned duty for the duration of the trip, per the flight release. Where one is assigned duty and where one's time flight time (block time, per Chief Legal Counsel Interpretation) is accountable toward 30 and 90 day, and 12 month limits, one has certainly acted as a required crew member under the regulation applicable to the flight, which meets the requirements of 14 CFR 61.51 (logging of flight time).
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Old 03-01-2021, 07:46 AM
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So the next time when I'm having a good snooze in the bunk and get a call to come up because an engine decided to stop cooperating, I'm going to tell them 'no thanks' I'm not logging this right now. Call back, one hour.

Log the entire flight, this is splitting hairs waaay too much.
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
14 CFR 121 does not prescribe the logging of flight time.

That would be 14 CFR 61.51, which has nothing to do with Part 121.

There is FAA Chief Legal Counsel interpretation available which points to logging time for that time only when one is assigned duty.

In most long range 121 flying, each crew member is assigned duty for the duration of the trip, per the flight release. Where one is assigned duty and where one's time flight time (block time, per Chief Legal Counsel Interpretation) is accountable toward 30 and 90 day, and 12 month limits, one has certainly acted as a required crew member under the regulation applicable to the flight, which meets the requirements of 14 CFR 61.51 (logging of flight time).
How would you suggest logging SIC vs. IRO? I'm looking at it mainly to be easily defensible at a job interview, where the person reviewing the logbook may not be familiar with the regulatory ins and outs of augmented crew time. You need to be able to explain it succinctly without sounding like you're reaching, and worst case you need to be able to quote chapter and verse of the regs.

My premise here is that might be a big can of worms to bring to an interview, especially a SWA/ULCC interview where they just don't have SA on that sort of flying. Basically you're trying to use bunk time to compete with mil, regional, and corporate pilots who were in the seat the whole time... can you make the case that bunk time is equivalent and reg-kosher?

Obviously the PIC who signed for the plane can log it all I think that's well established and assumed.
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
Wait so I need to remove the p-51 dual from my logbook to get hired? Lol
Old joke, reference to falsified logged time and a pen branded as the P-51.
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