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Old 08-12-2010, 08:16 PM   #11  
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Reminds me of a famous quote by one of my "former" (as in fired) Operations Officers made in front of the entire squadron:

"There's no good reason why any crewdog with a sharp pencil should ever go non-current. Know what I mean?"
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:36 PM   #12  
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As a required crew member, block in to block out.
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Old 08-14-2010, 02:26 AM   #13  
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No Captain OE - so always SIC.

I log for a three-person crew:

for a 9.6 hour flight

Flight time: 2/3*(9.6) = 6.4 hours SIC.
Also, in an unused column, the total time as: <9.6>,in angle brackets, just to record the total "time aloft" that included my sleep/rest time. The angle bracket-enclosed number does not figure in any totals. (It's already been tracked by the company, and in my little red book for weekly, monthly, and calendar limits, where does apply). If I was in either seat for a total of 3 hours or 8 hours, still log just this 2/3 fraction: 6.4)

************************************************** ************************

and a four person crew:

for a 9.6 hour flight

Flight time: 1/2*(9.6) = 4.8 hours SIC,
And the non-totalled <9.6> in angle brackets in my unused column...


************************************************** ************************

and of course, a two pilot crew:

for a 6.7 hour flight

I log 6.7 hours SIC
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:37 PM   #14  
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You're getting into the Acting/Serving discussion again, only backwards. The plane requires x number of pilots and you're one of them. You're serving as a SIC the whole time. You're only acting as a SIC while you're in the seat and the FAA limits that time to 8 hours. The company figures you've done your "share" of the flying and counts that towards your monthly totals, however rest is based on time aloft.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:14 PM   #15  
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When I was an FO, I logged all of it as SIC.

Now that I'm a captain, I log it all as PIC even when there are two captains on board.
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Old 08-26-2010, 04:31 PM   #16  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrosier View Post
Since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer - I figure I'm a required crew member for that flight, I'm logging time the entire time.
Let me get this straight. If your the "bunkie" (relief pilot, IRO, whatever you want to call the position) and you're on a scheduled break in either a crew bunk or a designated rest area, you're logging flight time ? You might as well log a few shuttle orbits and some supersonic flight in the Concorde while you're at it.

The original posting is a good question. For my two cents, after six years of international flying with augmented crews, the only professional way to log flight time is when you are sitting in one of the two front seats. As an F/O, even if type rated, you are supposed to log SIC time since you are a "second-in-command" on the flight release (FAR Part 121) no matter which seat you're sitting in. The designated pilot-in-command logs PIC as he's the one that gets the chair at the end of the mahogany table without a glass of water at the hearing.

Just my two cents Mates.

G'Day
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Old 08-26-2010, 05:14 PM   #17  
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You make a good point except:

Do you only get paid for the time you sit in the seat ? (Before you laugh, I heard that several Middle East carriers do just this.)

Does the FAA flight and duty time limits apply only to the time in seat or for the whole duration of the flight? This one is easy. Whole duration of flight.

If the captain is the PIC for the whole flight and only logs time in seat, then who was the PIC while the captain was in the bunk? If the captain logs the whole duration, then why would the SIC not?

Does your company define duties for the RO while he is not sitting at a seat? Mine does. Therefore, the RO is proforming required duties during a portion of the flight while not sitting in a front seat.

Logging time (with a few exceptions) isn't defined by the FAA at all. Therefore, it would only really come into play at an interview. The real question is would Delta or another carrier accept the time or not. My guess would be that at this point in your career, you have enough time. Can you justify why you logged what you did or not?

Just a few items to further cloud a cloudy issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer View Post
Let me get this straight. If your the "bunkie" (relief pilot, IRO, whatever you want to call the position) and you're on a scheduled break in either a crew bunk or a designated rest area, you're logging flight time ? You might as well log a few shuttle orbits and some supersonic flight in the Concorde while you're at it.

The original posting is a good question. For my two cents, after six years of international flying with augmented crews, the only professional way to log flight time is when you are sitting in one of the two front seats. As an F/O, even if type rated, you are supposed to log SIC time since you are a "second-in-command" on the flight release (FAR Part 121) no matter which seat you're sitting in. The designated pilot-in-command logs PIC as he's the one that gets the chair at the end of the mahogany table without a glass of water at the hearing.

Just my two cents Mates.

G'Day
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Old 08-26-2010, 05:42 PM   #18  
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When I was on the 777, there was only one CA and one PIC (the CA). When he was sleeping in the back for 7 hours, he was still the PIC. He signed for the plane. We use three FO's. I was SIC, or TIC, or FIC; as assigned that trip. I logged the whole trip block in to out as SIC. I'm not creating new columns for third or fourth in command. It's my log book, so who cares. I'm not building time, so who cares. My company keeps track of duty time and landings for currency. I always had to go to the sim every 90 days anyway. The regs say little about how to log time and you only need to prove time for certificates, ratings, and currency. This discussion is about as important as not logging your long taxi times. I sat waiting for a gate today for 30 minutes; should I log it?

I keep track of my block times for pay and log that same number. It easy that way.
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:38 PM   #19  
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Johnny & Otto:

My points exactly. Thank you.

If I'm in an interview and they want to discount the 300 or so hours of mine that I might have been in the bunk (if all of our aircraft HAD a bunk) out of the roughly 5000 hours of heavy time logged - well, I say have at it.
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:42 PM   #20  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer View Post
As an F/O, even if type rated, you are supposed to log SIC time since you are a "second-in-command" on the flight release (FAR Part 121) no matter which seat you're sitting in. The designated pilot-in-command logs PIC as he's the one that gets the chair at the end of the mahogany table without a glass of water at the hearing.
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't realize there was a debate about logging SIC vs. PIC. I agree with you, the only one who logs PIC is the guy who signed for the aircraft (with a few weird exceptions which are beyond the scope of this discussion, and perhaps even company specific).
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