skypimp92

Is it possible to log SIC time in a Citation Bravo if the Captain is single pilot typed but the insurance company requires a two man crew under part 91 operations. If not able to log SIC time and the Captain is CFI, CFI-I, and a MEI. Could the person in the right seat receive dual?

CFItillIdie

Negatory. Unless you have a SIC type you cannot log that. Dual from the right seat in a turbine AC that requires a type...don't think so. I have a friend who thinks differently but I can't think of any reg loopholes! Hopefully there is one. But from what I know there isn't. Just cause the insurance requires a second pilot doesn't mean it's required by the FARs. If it were a KA 90 or some other turbo prop under 12,500 I could maybe see that argument for that logging dual thing. But that would have to be from the left seat.

hypoxia

I don't see any reason why this Captain with a CFI can't give you dual towards your instructor ratings! Is he training you to be a Flight Instructor in a Citation Bravo or even better, an instrument airplane instructor? Why not? I believe the flight time is considered "Dual Instruction" not PIC and not SIC?

DirectTo

I'm picturing the interview scenario now:

(guy flipping through your logbook)
"So...you've got 50 hours of Citation time?"
"Yeah...It was a lot of fun, I learned a lot."
(finds the page, looks over to HR person, then back to your logbook)
"And it was all dual time?"
"Yes"
"Uh huh...and what's the instruction received in flying from Wichita to St. Louis, exactly?"

Get my point?

Remember, it's your logbook. You can log anything you want. But when you put something on a resume, and take your logbook to an interview, you invite them to flip through the entire thing and take it at face value.

Do what everyone else does, get your CFI/II and do some instructing. Actually build some time doing something instead of sitting there in an airplane you're unqualified to fly, where the other pilot doesn't even need you, staring out the window to pump up your logbook. :rolleyes:

Hawker Driver

Great advice!

hypoxia

No, actually I don't get the point! Here is an opportunity for a young guy or gal to get some good turbine experience! If it is legal then ....it is legal! The cost of flying has more than quadrupled since I took lessons in the early 80's! Folks have to be creative in getting flight experience that counts nowadays! 50 hours of dual in the right seat of a Citation is excellent experience no matter how you dice it! Besides, it is required to have a SIC per insurance requirements! Nothing to be ashamed of in my opinion.

Twin Wasp

You answered the first part yourself. To log time as a SIC, a SIC must be required by the TCDS or the reg the aircraft is operated under. Insurance requirements don't count. The requirements for logging SIC time are listed in 61.51, no where in there does it say you have to have a SIC type rating.

So you go the dual route. Also in 61.51 are the instructions for how an instructor enters training in the student's logbook. What's he going to put, "Pre-flight, normal engine start, taxi, T/O, enroute operations and nav, ILS approach and landing" 20 times? I can see the interview:

"So Mr. Pimp, I see you have 50 hours in a Bravo and it's all training. And in those 50 hours you never even got to the non-normals or emergency procedures. Our training program here at Sky-King Aviation is 6 sims and a check, about 14 hours total. Do you think you can complete our training if you had 50 hours in the Bravo and hadn't finished?"

Cubdriver

Two issues here- is the time legally required, and is it useful experience. I have seen too many times where new pilots get a chance to ride right seat in a jet or a King Air, improperly log it as SIC, and then make the jump to thinking they know something about those aircraft. I recommend skipping the non-required SIC hours. Just make a note in your diary. By all means ride right seat in any aircraft you like however, it's great experience.

hypoxia

Who says he didn't finish training? The Captain/CFI can sign him or her off for a CFII or "high altitude endorsement"...mission accomplished!

The OP's question isn't about what some hypothetical interviewer is going to ask in some future hypothetical interview. It is whether the logging of flight time in a Citation Bravo jet as dual instruction by a Captain/CFI is legal? The keyword being LEGAL! We can talk hypothetical BS scenarios all day long!

I'll admit, it sounds legal but I don't know the answer!

rickair7777

Wait, wait, wait Hold on here... I'm not familiar with the Bravo but I THINK it is certified for two pilots, or optionally one pilot (if he is specially typed for single pilot ops). If that is the case...

Just because the PIC is certified for SINGLE pilot ops does not mean that he cannot elect to conduct two-pilot ops...he can. If he chooses to do so, there is a legit requirement for an SIC.

The PIC must obviously be typed, but under 91 the SIC just needs the training in 61.55, he does NOT need a type for 91 DOMESTIC ops.

In this case, the best thing would probably be dual-received to get your High-Alt and 61.55 training, then just log legit SIC.

Don't log a buttload of Dual without a an obvious legitimate training purpose.

but like others have said, make sure you actually acquire some knowledge during your 61.55 training...future interviewers will often hone in on the most advanced aircraft in your logbook.