Official ATP rule - rumors?
12-21-2012, 12:27 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Position: ERJ
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
There will always be some inequities in life, but at some point there's no ignoring the finite resources. I agree that number of hours is meaningless, but an insurance company sets many of the rules, and a company can either exhaustively test applicants, costing lots of money, or require arbitrarily high hours and the higher overall quality as compared to 250hr-wonders (that do exist). The cost to benefit is just to great to invest that much into interviews and evaluation. It's similar to that when considering the "breaks" that the 141 universities get. It would be more "fair" to allow for testing that would establish lower mins for 61s, but economically it wouldn't go...I support the 1500hr rule.
For the military guys on this forum, here is an article that AOPA sent to me today through Enewsletter:
FAA may ease certification standard to be pilot - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times
12-21-2012, 01:05 PM
#132
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: KC-135R
Posts: 10
As an Air Force Reserve guy, I'm looking forward to the possibility of the restricted ATP. I'm not looking forward to volunteering for 3 more trips to the desert and leaving my family behind, just so I can get the extra 800 hours I need. Especially since 80% of my TT is large or heavy multi time flying all over the world. I believe there is validity to the 750TT ATP for military, especially those of us in the mobility world who get the experience of shooting approaches to mins in England, and then diverting to another country to land...
12-21-2012, 04:17 PM
#133
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,375
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
There will always be some inequities in life, but at some point there's no ignoring the finite resources. I agree that number of hours is meaningless, but an insurance company sets many of the rules, and a company can either exhaustively test applicants, costing lots of money, or require arbitrarily high hours and the higher overall quality as compared to 250hr-wonders (that do exist). The cost to benefit is just to great to invest that much into interviews and evaluation. It's similar to that when considering the "breaks" that the 141 universities get. It would be more "fair" to allow for testing that would establish lower mins for 61s, but economically it wouldn't go...I support the 1500hr rule.
As imprecise and unfair a metric as it may be, the 1500 hour pilot population is safer, on average, than the 300 hour pilot population.
In the civilian world some of the worst pilots will weed themselves out between 250 and 1500 hours by violations, incidents, non-survival, and even scaring themselves out of the industry.
12-22-2012, 07:57 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
I think everybody is in agreement that the 300 hour FO is done. The only controversy that remains is the “restricted ATP” for 141 BS grads and military guys. It doesn’t seem like many people think that a 1000 or 750 hour “restricted ATP” holder would be unsafe, they just think it’s unfair. To that you have to look at the minimum standard.
The worst military guy with 750TT is at specified standard. The worst 1000 hour 141 BS grad is at a specified standard. Remember the rule always applies to the worst quality pilot who meets the minimums. What standard is the country’s worst part 61 commercial pilot at with either 1000 or 750 hours? I do think that many pilots from the big professional pilot development “part 61 schools” are completely qualified at 750 or 1000 hours, but how can the FAA distinguish just you. They can only distinguish program you participated in, which is still unaccredited part 61 program. This means you’re in the same boat as the worst pilot that went to the worst FBO for training. Remember you don’t even have to have a high school degree to get an ATP. All professional fields maintain a minimum standard. If you were having surgery would you want a doctor from a medical university, military doctor, or someone who’s professional education is irrelevant because he passed the board exam?
This “restricted ATP” debate is the same old debate of airline flying being a skilled labor or a profession. The big difference is minimum standard. This is why the major’s trend to hire prior 121 drivers instead of 91 or 135 guys, minimum standards or standardized training. The reason some majors prefer to hire from certain regionals over others is minimum standard. It has nothing to do with a particular pilot’s ability that is where the actual test or interview comes in. If you are a sorry military pilot or a 141 BS grad, than you will receive a notice of disapproval at 750 or 1000 hours when you take your ATP. I think the restricted ATP minimums should go into effect with the contingency that if you do fail you must adhere to the general part 61 requirements to retest, because you have demonstrated that you are not up to the minimum standard for which you received reduced minimums.
The worst military guy with 750TT is at specified standard. The worst 1000 hour 141 BS grad is at a specified standard. Remember the rule always applies to the worst quality pilot who meets the minimums. What standard is the country’s worst part 61 commercial pilot at with either 1000 or 750 hours? I do think that many pilots from the big professional pilot development “part 61 schools” are completely qualified at 750 or 1000 hours, but how can the FAA distinguish just you. They can only distinguish program you participated in, which is still unaccredited part 61 program. This means you’re in the same boat as the worst pilot that went to the worst FBO for training. Remember you don’t even have to have a high school degree to get an ATP. All professional fields maintain a minimum standard. If you were having surgery would you want a doctor from a medical university, military doctor, or someone who’s professional education is irrelevant because he passed the board exam?
This “restricted ATP” debate is the same old debate of airline flying being a skilled labor or a profession. The big difference is minimum standard. This is why the major’s trend to hire prior 121 drivers instead of 91 or 135 guys, minimum standards or standardized training. The reason some majors prefer to hire from certain regionals over others is minimum standard. It has nothing to do with a particular pilot’s ability that is where the actual test or interview comes in. If you are a sorry military pilot or a 141 BS grad, than you will receive a notice of disapproval at 750 or 1000 hours when you take your ATP. I think the restricted ATP minimums should go into effect with the contingency that if you do fail you must adhere to the general part 61 requirements to retest, because you have demonstrated that you are not up to the minimum standard for which you received reduced minimums.
12-22-2012, 08:16 AM
#135
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,375
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
I think everybody is in agreement that the 300 hour FO is done. The only controversy that remains is the “restricted ATP” for 141 BS grads and military guys. It doesn’t seem like many people think that a 1000 or 750 hour “restricted ATP” holder would be unsafe, they just think it’s unfair. To that you have to look at the minimum standard.
The worst military guy with 750TT is at specified standard. The worst 1000 hour 141 BS grad is at a specified standard. Remember the rule always applies to the worst quality pilot who meets the minimums. What standard is the country’s worst part 61 commercial pilot at with either 1000 or 750 hours? I do think that many pilots from the big professional pilot development “part 61 schools” are completely qualified at 750 or 1000 hours, but how can the FAA distinguish just you. They can only distinguish program you participated in, which is still unaccredited part 61 program. This means you’re in the same boat as the worst pilot that went to the worst FBO for training. Remember you don’t even have to have a high school degree to get an ATP. All professional fields maintain a minimum standard. If you were having surgery would you want a doctor from a medical university, military doctor, or someone who’s professional education is irrelevant because he passed the board exam?
This “restricted ATP” debate is the same old debate of airline flying being a skilled labor or a profession. The big difference is minimum standard. This is why the major’s trend to hire prior 121 drivers instead of 91 or 135 guys, minimum standards or standardized training. The reason some majors prefer to hire from certain regionals over others is minimum standard. It has nothing to do with a particular pilot’s ability that is where the actual test or interview comes in. If you are a sorry military pilot or a 141 BS grad, than you will receive a notice of disapproval at 750 or 1000 hours when you take your ATP. I think the restricted ATP minimums should go into effect with the contingency that if you do fail you must adhere to the general part 61 requirements to retest, because you have demonstrated that you are not up to the minimum standard for which you received reduced minimums.
The worst military guy with 750TT is at specified standard. The worst 1000 hour 141 BS grad is at a specified standard. Remember the rule always applies to the worst quality pilot who meets the minimums. What standard is the country’s worst part 61 commercial pilot at with either 1000 or 750 hours? I do think that many pilots from the big professional pilot development “part 61 schools” are completely qualified at 750 or 1000 hours, but how can the FAA distinguish just you. They can only distinguish program you participated in, which is still unaccredited part 61 program. This means you’re in the same boat as the worst pilot that went to the worst FBO for training. Remember you don’t even have to have a high school degree to get an ATP. All professional fields maintain a minimum standard. If you were having surgery would you want a doctor from a medical university, military doctor, or someone who’s professional education is irrelevant because he passed the board exam?
This “restricted ATP” debate is the same old debate of airline flying being a skilled labor or a profession. The big difference is minimum standard. This is why the major’s trend to hire prior 121 drivers instead of 91 or 135 guys, minimum standards or standardized training. The reason some majors prefer to hire from certain regionals over others is minimum standard. It has nothing to do with a particular pilot’s ability that is where the actual test or interview comes in. If you are a sorry military pilot or a 141 BS grad, than you will receive a notice of disapproval at 750 or 1000 hours when you take your ATP. I think the restricted ATP minimums should go into effect with the contingency that if you do fail you must adhere to the general part 61 requirements to retest, because you have demonstrated that you are not up to the minimum standard for which you received reduced minimums.
I'm all for it for military, but not for 141.
Ultimately even in 141 skill, ability, and work ethic takes a back seat to money...if you can keep paying, you can keep training, at least up to a point.
US military training is about as pure as it gets...you can't buy extra training there.
12-22-2012, 10:55 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Position: ERJ
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I'm all for it for military, but not for 141.
Ultimately even in 141 skill, ability, and work ethic takes a back seat to money...if you can keep paying, you can keep training, at least up to a point.
US military training is about as pure as it gets...you can't buy extra training there.
Ultimately even in 141 skill, ability, and work ethic takes a back seat to money...if you can keep paying, you can keep training, at least up to a point.
US military training is about as pure as it gets...you can't buy extra training there.
12-22-2012, 01:01 PM
#138
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,375
Originally Posted by Beech90
What about age? Is a 19-21 year old qualified to fly as a F/O should they have 1500TT?
The NPRM allows for the restricted ATP at age 21, but only for BS 141 program graduates. Technically it applies to military too, but there's essentially no way you could get through military training and have 750 hours before age 23, and even if you did, you'd still owe the military a bunch of years.
Other than that, the few folks affected by the age 23 requirement will mostly be people who didn't go to college. The general consensus in the industry would be go back to school, chase girls, drink beer, maybe learn something and then worry about the airlines.
With a little luck, unions will make an effort to get the company to preserve the seniority numbers of those already employed so they can return at age 23 with seniority intact. I suspect that's the best they're going to do.
With all that said, I think 21 is old enough to be an FO but there's no interest I've seen in making that happen carte blanche, other than for BS 141 grads..
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