For the younger guys
01-16-2020, 10:34 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,097
Today on CNBC
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
Airbus releases photos of automatic take-offs
David ReidPublished Thu, Jan 16 202010:05 AM EST
Airbus looks to have taken pilotless commercial jet flight one step closer after revealing that one of its test aircraft has taken off automatically.
The European planemaker said that in tests conducted at Toulouse-Blagnac airport on December 18, an A350-1000 with two pilots sitting ready to take over, conducted eight takeoffs on auto-pilot.
Accompanying the press release was a photograph showing a pilot sitting with one hand at rest as the plane pitched up.
“We moved the throttle levers to the take-off setting and we monitored the aircraft. It started to move and accelerate automatically maintaining the runway center line, at the exact rotation speed as entered in the system. The nose of the aircraft began to lift up automatically to take the expected take-off pitch value and a few seconds later we were airborne,” said Airbus Test Pilot Captain Yann Beaufils.
The technology behind the takeoff is different from the Instrument Landing System (ILS) currently used around the world, Airbus said in its press release Thursday. Instead, the company said the automatic takeoff was made possible by image recognition technology installed directly on the aircraft.
The company says the next step is automatic vision-based landing and taxi sequences taking place by mid-2020.
March to automation
Airbus says that auto pilot takeoff is an important milestone for its Autonomous Taxi, Take-Off & Landing (ATTOL) project — one of several that Airbus is conducting on aviation autonomy.
Two crashes involving the Boeing 737 Max in late 2018 and early last year have raised questions about automation in flight. However, Airbus appears determined to take it to the next level.
Pilot shortages and airline operators that are keen to reduce costs have led to planemakers investigating greater levels of automation.
Swiss bank UBS has estimated that a pilot is typically in full control of a jet plane for an average of just 7 minutes on each flight. It has also claimed that single-pilot commercial and cargo planes could take to the skies within the next five years.
The bank claimed transition to one operating pilot would lead to a cost-saving opportunity for the commercial jet industry of at least $15 billion in annual pilot, training, fuel and insurance costs.
But one 2017 survey by UBS found that 63% of people oppose flying in a pilotless aircraft.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/airb...take-offs.html
David ReidPublished Thu, Jan 16 202010:05 AM EST
Airbus looks to have taken pilotless commercial jet flight one step closer after revealing that one of its test aircraft has taken off automatically.
The European planemaker said that in tests conducted at Toulouse-Blagnac airport on December 18, an A350-1000 with two pilots sitting ready to take over, conducted eight takeoffs on auto-pilot.
Accompanying the press release was a photograph showing a pilot sitting with one hand at rest as the plane pitched up.
“We moved the throttle levers to the take-off setting and we monitored the aircraft. It started to move and accelerate automatically maintaining the runway center line, at the exact rotation speed as entered in the system. The nose of the aircraft began to lift up automatically to take the expected take-off pitch value and a few seconds later we were airborne,” said Airbus Test Pilot Captain Yann Beaufils.
The technology behind the takeoff is different from the Instrument Landing System (ILS) currently used around the world, Airbus said in its press release Thursday. Instead, the company said the automatic takeoff was made possible by image recognition technology installed directly on the aircraft.
The company says the next step is automatic vision-based landing and taxi sequences taking place by mid-2020.
March to automation
Airbus says that auto pilot takeoff is an important milestone for its Autonomous Taxi, Take-Off & Landing (ATTOL) project — one of several that Airbus is conducting on aviation autonomy.
Two crashes involving the Boeing 737 Max in late 2018 and early last year have raised questions about automation in flight. However, Airbus appears determined to take it to the next level.
Pilot shortages and airline operators that are keen to reduce costs have led to planemakers investigating greater levels of automation.
Swiss bank UBS has estimated that a pilot is typically in full control of a jet plane for an average of just 7 minutes on each flight. It has also claimed that single-pilot commercial and cargo planes could take to the skies within the next five years.
The bank claimed transition to one operating pilot would lead to a cost-saving opportunity for the commercial jet industry of at least $15 billion in annual pilot, training, fuel and insurance costs.
But one 2017 survey by UBS found that 63% of people oppose flying in a pilotless aircraft.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/airb...take-offs.html
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
Last edited by Name User; 01-16-2020 at 10:45 AM.
01-16-2020, 11:12 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Position: 6th place
Posts: 1,826
Originally Posted by Name User
Today on CNBC
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
And what was their feeling on if going straight to zero was viable?
01-16-2020, 12:46 PM
#103
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,097
Originally Posted by mainlineAF
And what was their feeling on if going straight to zero was viable?
The thing that really stuck out was how far the FAA is taking the current regs. Example, random drug tests...the tech companies don't like that because they find it stifles their ability to get talent. I'm thinking...drug testing for a 135 drone operation? But they are sticking to it for now.
So that gives you an idea of the FAA's mindset.
I tried to push a little more into autonomous aircraft at this level. His thought, and again this is just his opinion, was within 20-30 years. But all of that is opinion. Nothing factual to back it up. He wasn't that high up in the FAA. But DC does have a special group tasked with working on it.
When you look at automation this (auto takeoff) is just the natural progression in things. It actually makes sense as it is by far one of the most dangerous events. It will allow both (or single) pilots to focus completely on the decision process.
When ATC goes completely automated is when (I believe) autonomous airliners are right around the corner, and we will see the beginning of the end for piloted aircraft. I think as long as we have ATC controlling aircraft directly, we are safe.
But, even that is evolving. https://www.discovermagazine.com/tec...ing-completion
One thing to keep in mind is in order to have worldwide ability, you're going to need to have the same software pretty much running everywhere. From the Caribbean islands to Europe, Asia, North and South America. This will be a large undertaking.
It mind end up that the automation will first take over the dispatcher and ATC jobs. Pilots will be tasked with dispatching their own flights, and ensuring aircraft comply and stay safe while operating under automated ATC instructions. We could be the last to lose our jobs...or the first.
01-16-2020, 01:44 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Position: 6th place
Posts: 1,826
Originally Posted by Name User
It was a fairly limited conversation as he was riding to work. We first started with a conversation about the current state of autonomy. He visited several of the tech companies so was somewhat familiar with where they are right now.
The thing that really stuck out was how far the FAA is taking the current regs. Example, random drug tests...the tech companies don't like that because they find it stifles their ability to get talent. I'm thinking...drug testing for a 135 drone operation? But they are sticking to it for now.
So that gives you an idea of the FAA's mindset.
I tried to push a little more into autonomous aircraft at this level. His thought, and again this is just his opinion, was within 20-30 years. But all of that is opinion. Nothing factual to back it up. He wasn't that high up in the FAA. But DC does have a special group tasked with working on it.
When you look at automation this (auto takeoff) is just the natural progression in things. It actually makes sense as it is by far one of the most dangerous events. It will allow both (or single) pilots to focus completely on the decision process.
When ATC goes completely automated is when (I believe) autonomous airliners are right around the corner, and we will see the beginning of the end for piloted aircraft. I think as long as we have ATC controlling aircraft directly, we are safe.
But, even that is evolving. https://www.discovermagazine.com/tec...ing-completion
One thing to keep in mind is in order to have worldwide ability, you're going to need to have the same software pretty much running everywhere. From the Caribbean islands to Europe, Asia, North and South America. This will be a large undertaking.
It mind end up that the automation will first take over the dispatcher and ATC jobs. Pilots will be tasked with dispatching their own flights, and ensuring aircraft comply and stay safe while operating under automated ATC instructions. We could be the last to lose our jobs...or the first.
The thing that really stuck out was how far the FAA is taking the current regs. Example, random drug tests...the tech companies don't like that because they find it stifles their ability to get talent. I'm thinking...drug testing for a 135 drone operation? But they are sticking to it for now.
So that gives you an idea of the FAA's mindset.
I tried to push a little more into autonomous aircraft at this level. His thought, and again this is just his opinion, was within 20-30 years. But all of that is opinion. Nothing factual to back it up. He wasn't that high up in the FAA. But DC does have a special group tasked with working on it.
When you look at automation this (auto takeoff) is just the natural progression in things. It actually makes sense as it is by far one of the most dangerous events. It will allow both (or single) pilots to focus completely on the decision process.
When ATC goes completely automated is when (I believe) autonomous airliners are right around the corner, and we will see the beginning of the end for piloted aircraft. I think as long as we have ATC controlling aircraft directly, we are safe.
But, even that is evolving. https://www.discovermagazine.com/tec...ing-completion
One thing to keep in mind is in order to have worldwide ability, you're going to need to have the same software pretty much running everywhere. From the Caribbean islands to Europe, Asia, North and South America. This will be a large undertaking.
It mind end up that the automation will first take over the dispatcher and ATC jobs. Pilots will be tasked with dispatching their own flights, and ensuring aircraft comply and stay safe while operating under automated ATC instructions. We could be the last to lose our jobs...or the first.
Good stuff, thx. The up, down, left, right stuff being automated doesn’t bother me. We’ve had autolands since the 70s or so.
We are there for our decision making. I personally just don’t see how that can be automated.
01-16-2020, 01:49 PM
#105
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by Name User
Today on CNBC
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
They might well need to fly a fully automated airliner with one or two safety pilots for a very long time before turning them loose... especially if they use any sort of non-deterministic AI.
01-16-2020, 01:53 PM
#106
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by mainlineAF
Good stuff, thx. The up, down, left, right stuff being automated doesn’t bother me. We’ve had autolands since the 70s or so.
We are there for our decision making. I personally just don’t see how that can be automated.
We are there for our decision making. I personally just don’t see how that can be automated.
What it comes down to to is how much will cost to add enough redundancy and backups to keep the plane "on the script". Right now it would obviously cost more than pilots. Also dispatch reliability will be huuuuge factor.
01-16-2020, 10:41 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by Name User
Today on CNBC
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
https://youtu.be/Z1AzomN0KjU
I recently talked to an FAA guy familiar with the pilotless certification process in DC. Said the FAA wants either two pilots or zero pilots. There probably won't be a step to just a single pilot.
01-17-2020, 12:39 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,097
Originally Posted by Bigapplepilot
What does the ‘hand at rest’ in the photo mean? His left hand is on the stick, his right hand is at rest. That’s how every takeoff is done.
They also are working on training the AI to fly visual approaches with nothing but a camera. No ILS needed.
01-17-2020, 12:46 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,097
Originally Posted by mainlineAF
Good stuff, thx. The up, down, left, right stuff being automated doesn’t bother me. We’ve had autolands since the 70s or so.
We are there for our decision making. I personally just don’t see how that can be automated.
We are there for our decision making. I personally just don’t see how that can be automated.
As of now, google's plan for anything unexpected is for the UAS vehicles to return to their "hive" (ie RTB). Not really a great option for commercial aircraft. So this stuff, even at the bleeding edge, isn't quite there yet. I'd actually argue Garmin's big red auto land button is more advanced as it takes a look at weather, terrain, etc selects an approach, flies it, and communicates over 121.50 with synthetic voice. That is the one that gave me pause. It makes sense, the stuff is easily done from a big picture viewpoint.
I would hope that sort of thing starts being implemented into our FD pro app. Especially for overwater operations with limited diversion options, we really need a way to instantly view weather at company specific diversion airports. Grabbing weather and keeping track of it while on the tracks is quite tedious IMO. Bringing the two together will be a good use of that technology for manned operations.
01-17-2020, 03:04 PM
#110
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Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by Name User
Don't overthink it. The airplane tracked centerline and rotated by itself.
They also are working on training the AI to fly visual approaches with nothing but a camera. No ILS needed.
They also are working on training the AI to fly visual approaches with nothing but a camera. No ILS needed.
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