Psa, pdt, env?
10-11-2016 | 08:35 AM
#41
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment.
The truth is that PSA has a very good QOL, a very short reserve/upgrade time, and is a good option. There are some arrogant bullies on APC that like to put PSA down, but we have a good airline with a good future. They tell half truths about the history, and use words to take out their frustrations about the failures of their own airline/MEC/management.
PSA was accused of taking "concessions", but as you can see, the MEC played their cards well, and took good improvements and won in the end.
As far as the flow goes, our current terms are not the best of the 3 - maybe. We are currently in negotiations on improving this. We will see what happens. But, I can say that we are currently flowing pilots that were hired in 2007, which is better than the other 2. PDT and PSA are increasing the number that they are flowing, while Envoy is decreasing it's number going forward.
Our attrition is high right now, losing 28 off of the list last month (not counting those that flowed). Of those, 10 were captains. If you include the 7 that flowed, we lost 17 captains last month. That is not bad, and people are upgrading and moving up the list quickly.
If we can get to 100 flow/year in 2017, then those pilots hired in 2014 will flow in 2019-2021, so a 5-7 year flow. It is not great, but it is far from terrible.
New hires today should not really be too concerned with a flow times anyway. The majors need to hire more pilots in the next 5 years than are currently flying at all off the regionals combined. The flow is a great back-up, in case you screw up an interview or two, it provides a guaranteed job, but you should be able to get hired outside of the flow faster than the flow anyway.
The truth is that PSA has a very good QOL, a very short reserve/upgrade time, and is a good option. There are some arrogant bullies on APC that like to put PSA down, but we have a good airline with a good future. They tell half truths about the history, and use words to take out their frustrations about the failures of their own airline/MEC/management.
PSA was accused of taking "concessions", but as you can see, the MEC played their cards well, and took good improvements and won in the end.
As far as the flow goes, our current terms are not the best of the 3 - maybe. We are currently in negotiations on improving this. We will see what happens. But, I can say that we are currently flowing pilots that were hired in 2007, which is better than the other 2. PDT and PSA are increasing the number that they are flowing, while Envoy is decreasing it's number going forward.
Our attrition is high right now, losing 28 off of the list last month (not counting those that flowed). Of those, 10 were captains. If you include the 7 that flowed, we lost 17 captains last month. That is not bad, and people are upgrading and moving up the list quickly.
If we can get to 100 flow/year in 2017, then those pilots hired in 2014 will flow in 2019-2021, so a 5-7 year flow. It is not great, but it is far from terrible.
New hires today should not really be too concerned with a flow times anyway. The majors need to hire more pilots in the next 5 years than are currently flying at all off the regionals combined. The flow is a great back-up, in case you screw up an interview or two, it provides a guaranteed job, but you should be able to get hired outside of the flow faster than the flow anyway.
Bar napkin math says 1500/100 is 15 years to flow. Care to elaborate on how you arrived at the conclusion that its roughly the same as PDT/ENY?
Not trying to be a jerk, genuinely interested in how this works out as I am not familiar with PSA's flow at all.
10-11-2016 | 08:45 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 955
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From: CL65
PSA flows 100 pilots a year? Dont you have around 1500 pilots?
Bar napkin math says 1500/100 is 15 years to flow. Care to elaborate on how you arrived at the conclusion that its roughly the same as PDT/ENY?
Not trying to be a jerk, genuinely interested in how this works out as I am not familiar with PSA's flow at all.
Bar napkin math says 1500/100 is 15 years to flow. Care to elaborate on how you arrived at the conclusion that its roughly the same as PDT/ENY?
Not trying to be a jerk, genuinely interested in how this works out as I am not familiar with PSA's flow at all.
The key, though, is attrition (attrition outside of the flow). We lost 28 last month. The norm lately has been 15-18 per month. Of those, quite a few were within a year of flowing. Delta has been taking a lot of our pilots lately. We have lost several senior pilots to JetBlue and Southwest as well. In the mid range, we have quite a few leaving to Spirit, Atlas, and a couple to Kalitta.
People that were hired 2 years ago move up more than 12 spots a month still.
Here's some math:
If you are #1200, and 150 are lifers/instructors that wont flow, that puts you at #1050.
Now, for simple math, lets estimate that we are flowing 8 a month, and 5 a month are leaving to other airlines as an absolute worst case scenario. (It will be 25-30 per month your first year, but less as you move up the list, so lets just say 5 a month)...
That means that you move up on average 13 spots a month. That is 6 and a half years.
Last edited by CLT Guy; 10-11-2016 at 08:55 AM.
10-11-2016 | 08:52 AM
#43
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Joined: Sep 2016
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Part of the reason for the attrition is that in 2014, about half of our new hires were 7-9 year FO's from Endeavor. Most of them are approaching 1000 hours PIC, along with 7000+ total hours. They are motivated to move on, and are not waiting for the flow. They are getting picked up quickly.
We also hired about 100 former Comair pilots. Most are older, and not interested at all in moving on. They are here for a couple years, and will retire at 65. There are several sim and ground instructors on the seniority list that do not have medicals and are over 65.
No one was really surprised that our attrition last month (outside of the flow) was 28. It should stay in that range.
We also hired about 100 former Comair pilots. Most are older, and not interested at all in moving on. They are here for a couple years, and will retire at 65. There are several sim and ground instructors on the seniority list that do not have medicals and are over 65.
No one was really surprised that our attrition last month (outside of the flow) was 28. It should stay in that range.
10-11-2016 | 08:59 AM
#44
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
PSA currently has 1100 pilots (1160 on the list, but several people that are already gone are still on the list). In that, there are about 150 that will not/can not flow.
The key, though, is attrition (attrition outside of the flow). We lost 28 last month. The norm lately has been 15-18 per month. Of those, quite a few were within a year of flowing. Delta has been taking a lot of our pilots lately. We have lost several senior pilots to JetBlue and Southwest as well. In the mid range, we have quite a few leaving to Spirit, Atlas, and a couple to Kalitta.
People that were hired 2 years ago move up more than 12 spots a month still.
Here's some math:
If you are #1200, and 150 are lifers/instructors that wont flow, that puts you at #1050.
Now, for simple math, lets estimate that we are flowing 8 a month, and 5 a month are leaving to other airlines as an absolute worst case scenario. (It will be 25-30 per month your first year, but less as you move up the list, so lets just say 5 a month)...
That means that you move up on average 13 spots a month. That is 6 and a half years.
The key, though, is attrition (attrition outside of the flow). We lost 28 last month. The norm lately has been 15-18 per month. Of those, quite a few were within a year of flowing. Delta has been taking a lot of our pilots lately. We have lost several senior pilots to JetBlue and Southwest as well. In the mid range, we have quite a few leaving to Spirit, Atlas, and a couple to Kalitta.
People that were hired 2 years ago move up more than 12 spots a month still.
Here's some math:
If you are #1200, and 150 are lifers/instructors that wont flow, that puts you at #1050.
Now, for simple math, lets estimate that we are flowing 8 a month, and 5 a month are leaving to other airlines as an absolute worst case scenario. (It will be 25-30 per month your first year, but less as you move up the list, so lets just say 5 a month)...
That means that you move up on average 13 spots a month. That is 6 and a half years.
10-11-2016 | 09:01 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 955
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From: CL65
10-11-2016 | 09:13 AM
#47
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,548
Likes: 136
PSA flows 100 pilots a year? Dont you have around 1500 pilots?
Bar napkin math says 1500/100 is 15 years to flow. Care to elaborate on how you arrived at the conclusion that its roughly the same as PDT/ENY?
Not trying to be a jerk, genuinely interested in how this works out as I am not familiar with PSA's flow at all.
Bar napkin math says 1500/100 is 15 years to flow. Care to elaborate on how you arrived at the conclusion that its roughly the same as PDT/ENY?
Not trying to be a jerk, genuinely interested in how this works out as I am not familiar with PSA's flow at all.
But the metric that allows for this is measured quarterly. So best case scenario we might be capable of flowing that number 3q next year.
All three of the WOs are guilty of inflating their flow numbers and times.
I am a early 2014 hire and I imagine I would flow in another 3-4 years. Making my flow time 6 years. I'm obviously active in going elsewhere...
Between my DOH and the end of the 2015 there were close to 900 people hired. Predicting outside attrition is a tough one, however, the company and ALPA both think 20ish% (or so they told us that last year) annually, but that is all across the list not just from the top.
Regardless, I think the flow is a nice back pocket tool in case I don't get picked up elsewhere. But to rely on it alone is foolish.
10-11-2016 | 09:34 AM
#48
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 394
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The SAP sounds great. We don't have the same thing at Envoy. We do have a trip trade window every month. You won't get a holiday off out of it, but you can make your sequence more commutable, pick up or drop time, or move some days off around.
Are first year guys holding round 1 lines in CLT (your only hub base)? I think PSA has the best QOL for guys that live in or have an easy commute to one of your outstation bases, but let's not pretend like someone commuting to CLT will have a great first year.
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10-11-2016 | 09:38 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,601
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From: CRJ FO
The SAP sounds great. We don't have the same thing at Envoy. We do have a trip trade window every month. You won't get a holiday off out of it, but you can make your sequence more commutable, pick up or drop time, or move some days off around.
Are first year guys holding round 1 lines in CLT (your only hub base)? I think PSA has the best QOL for guys that live in or have an easy commute to one of your outstation bases, but let's not pretend like someone commuting to CLT will have a great first year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are first year guys holding round 1 lines in CLT (your only hub base)? I think PSA has the best QOL for guys that live in or have an easy commute to one of your outstation bases, but let's not pretend like someone commuting to CLT will have a great first year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
10-11-2016 | 09:47 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 755
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The SAP sounds great. We don't have the same thing at Envoy. We do have a trip trade window every month. You won't get a holiday off out of it, but you can make your sequence more commutable, pick up or drop time, or move some days off around.
Are first year guys holding round 1 lines in CLT (your only hub base)? I think PSA has the best QOL for guys that live in or have an easy commute to one of your outstation bases, but let's not pretend like someone commuting to CLT will have a great first year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are first year guys holding round 1 lines in CLT (your only hub base)? I think PSA has the best QOL for guys that live in or have an easy commute to one of your outstation bases, but let's not pretend like someone commuting to CLT will have a great first year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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