JohnBurke

Autofocus is absolutely not the point, and irrelevant, but whether the device can transmit wirelessly is also irrelevant.

Whether it's used to transmit wirelessly is another matter, but not whether the device can, or not.

I am issued an iPad electronic flight bag which most certainly CAN transmit wirelessly. It's not used or that purpose in flight, though some are. It can also take pictures. Go figure.

In fact, just prior to departure, just before entering the runway, a departure message is sent from that EFB, updated with the takeoff time, and one is sent after landing.

Parked, holding short of the runway, with no possibility of movement given four warbirds and a fuel truck, there is no prohibition against a crew on a ferry flight, which is the subject of this thread, from taking a picture of those aircraft (or fuel truck). None.

Someone suggested that I post to social media; I don't do facebook or the myriad other rubber-boned teenager sites, so you won't be finding those pictures posted to "social media."

The fedex crew in the picture at the outset of this thread have not been referenced as having taken a picture, but had they done so, they'd have been neither wrong nor in violation of the regulation.

Sluggo_63

Sluggo63: **Types a response with citations and support**

JohnBurke: **That’s stupid and doesn’t make sense to me, so you’re wrong**

The fact that your company issued EFB is allowed to be used in flight and transmits a message is a straw man that has no bearing on whether or not you can use a personal electronic device during flight to take photos.

You ask others for citations and references to support their statements, but you don’t provide any supporting your side. Where are they? Where are your Chief Counsel Opinions? You do know that as recent as 2014 the FAA actively has gone after pilots who were posting photos to social media, right?

One thing I will agree with you on is that you’re right, it’s doesn’t make sense. An aircraft parked with the parking brake set is not going to be in any danger if the pilot snapped a few warbird pictures. But, the FAA rarely makes sense, and if you took that photo with a device that is capable of transmitting wirelessly (whether it was in “airplane mode” of not), you were in violation.

JohnBurke

The fact that you haven't read the thread or responses, or the citations (with links), and that that you think taking photos in flight is somehow relevant, points clearly to the simple fact that further discussion with you would be a waste of time.

The discussion is about a crew of an airplane on a ferry flight, held short of the runway on the ground by four warbirds and a fuel truck. Read the damn thread.

You really didn't read it, did you, boy?

I posted not only the regulation, but additional supporting materials, references, AND links, which you'd know if you'd read the damn thread.

Social media is irrelevant.

I didn't make the statement that pilots can't take pictures. That was another poster, who has been wholly unable to support his own statement, and who has posted partial quotes of material without citation, and without link, and who has misunderstood that which he attempted to quote.

You too, it seems.

The thing is, it was his assertion, not mine. It's his responsibility prove, not mine.

Sluggo_63

I read the whole thing, and the one reference you did cite, you skipped over the important and relevant part.

Read 121.542(d) and tell me how you arrive at your conclusion.

Sluggo_63

You must be a joy to fly with.

Two of your links are irrelevant, since they had to do with passenger use of PEDs. ("Expanding Use of Passenger Portable Electronic Devices (PED)", dated 10/28/13 and "FAA Aid to Operators for the Expanded Use of Passenger PEDS", dated 6/9/14). Worthless to the conversation, but thanks for wasting our time with that.

Your next link was to CFR 14 121.542. Here you were getting warm, but you incorrectly focused on paragraphs (a)-(c) and that note about the definition of taxi which you said was important, but actually means nothing for this conversation. What you need to do is keep reading down to paragraph (d) which was the new paragraph added in Feb 2014 to address pilots using PEDs while operating the aircraft.

FAA-2012-0929 Final Rule

I agree. Except for the fact that social media was what the FAA was using to find these pilots in violation. What is irrelevant are your anecdotes about you snapping pictures with the FAA in your jumpseat or the FAA leaning forward to take pictures. Also irrelevant is the fact that your company EFB transmits data to the company before takeoff and after landing. None of these things are germane to the conversation. I don't know why you added them, but it's fine. I can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Nor did I.

Pot, meet kettle...

I believe I have wholly backed up my side of the argument.

Maybe it got lost in all the replies, but here is what I'm saying. You may not use a Personal Electronic Device for non-company business while you are sitting at your duty station any time from when you block out until you block in. That includes, cell phones, tablets, or any other device that is capable of transmitting a signal (whether or not the cellular capability is turned on or off). So, if you have blocked out, and are sitting on a taxiway, with the brake set and you want to take a picture with your iPhone, that is a violation. If you want to take a picture with a non-transmitting capable camera, you are fine, depending on your individual airline's rules.

You seem to be conflating the "Sterile Cockpit Rule" {121.542 (a)-(c)} with the new "Prohibition on Personal Use of Electronic Devices on the Flight Deck" {121.542 (d)}.

JohnBurke

You really can't because apparently you still haven't read the damn thread, kiddo.

They're relevant because they were introduced only in response to other posters, who raised the issues. The initial introduction was irrelevant, as is most of your commentary, in light of the original post.

Did you figure out that we're not talking about sending pictures in flight, yet?

bravo24

These delivery flights are operated under Part 91. Would that make a difference?

dynap09

I thought PED rules were simple under part 91, you can use it if operator has determined it won't interfere. If this is a company issued device - what more do people want? This is a Fedex ferry flight right?

Hard to see an issue, despite the loud noises from Sluggo

91.21

If this is banned, the FAA has a MUCH bigger issue with LOTS of other part 91 flying out there (full videos etc etc on cell phones and more).

Sluggo, you might want to speak to someone offline about your part 91 theories on PED's to make sure you are on the right track.

Sluggo_63

Ugh... Once JohnBurke started with the ad hominem I told myself I wasn't going to wade back into this. That old saw about wrestling with a pig...

We don't know if it was Part 91 or Part 121. Since I fly for the operator in question, I'll tell you that there is a better than even chance that this was dispatched under Part 121.

I never said this wouldn't be allowed under Part 91. In fact in an earlier post I said:
But you did fail to mention Part 91.21(c)
In this case, FedEx (through its FOM), not the PIC makes the determination on what PEDs can be used while operating the aircraft.

What I was addressing was the fact that JohnBurke was totally incorrect when he consistently told people that it was okay to use a cell phone or PED to take photos after block-out as long as the brakes are set.

The bolded above is absolutely incorrect according to CFR 14 121.542(d). I think it's silly. I'm sure most other people think it's silly, too. Pilots probably don't follow it much, and they don't get caught. But for him to read 121.542(d) and tell everyone that a pilot can take photos with their cellphone or EFB if they are holding short of a runway with the engines running and parking brake set is incorrect.

METO Guido

Doesn't really matter if it's framing a snapshot, typing on a iPad, squeezing a mayo package onto dry turkey or daydreaming about the flirty conversation you had at the pub last night, the issue (for me anyway) is one of distraction. At an active RW threshold, in tight proximity to moving traffic. Nearly everyone recalls aviation's worst nightmare at Tenerife. Remember what the PIC was so preoccupied with?

The comment with respect to photos was; "Airline pilots can't…" Well at least they know they're not supposed to. As far as dispatching under Pt. 91 while operating an airliner, done my share. Was never a shortcut for the crew.