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Quote:

Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog (Post 365422)

Understood. I didn't say I agreed with the first point. I was just wondering how you would characterize someone with a full retirement actually forcing others to sacrifice for them if you thought a poster making suggestion was being mean!

My point is that it is right to let a guy flow back when he becomes unable to hold FO or CA. I don't want to throw anyone out on the street.

Going back the other way is a different issue altogether. I did not address that issue.

I'm not going to worry about the independent contractors, non-members and others who are only out for themselves. I do everything I can to guard against their malfeasance but I want to treat everyone with some civility.

"My point is that it is right to let a guy flow back when he becomes unable to hold FO or CA. I don't want to throw anyone out on the street."

I'm with ya man. I also don't want to see anyone forced out of a seat either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyF15 (Post 365404)

I've flown with several dudes the past few months who are in that situation, except they've been here over 30 years and plan to stick around to "get one more type rating" in the 777. YGBSM right? They are'nt getting just one more type rating, they are taking a pass on the best retirement remaining in the industry and screwing the junior guys in the process so they can work at 1/2 pay. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

In answer to your question, I really don't know what to say. I hate to talk about in the jet because my blood pressure gets too high. I had one of these guys tell me "don't worry, you're getting the same deal I am." How's that? By waiting an extra 3-4 years to upgrade and than choosing to work past 60 so I can earn what I would have had things not changed. It's fuzzy math at best, and the bottom line is these guys are just being greedy.

Period, Dot, EOS....

See Jolly you still don't think like an airline pilot. Many of these dudes have 1 or 2 ex wives with lawyers sitting around waiting to collect their share of the retirement money. The wives get 0 now but up to 50% of the retirement check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightfreight (Post 365413)

Jolly,
I agree with you 100%!

My question is why are we excessing from the 727/So position. It is the lowest paying job in the company and now we are giving the opportunity for guys that essentially work for free (J Lewis and friends) to move into wide body captain positions? I realize 727 Seconds are overmanned, but don't you think every position will be after the -10 excess?

This excess bid for any position other than the DC-10 is ridiculous...

It is not the lowest paying job. I will bet there are 50 guys in the back collecting passover. If they pass on a chance to bid up they will lose their passover.

Quote:

Try Section 24.E.6. smart guy.

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I have found that a little research before shooting off my mouth is a necessity around here.

Maybe I missed it but I don't see where the contract discusses excessing from a position and concurrently allowing age restricted pilots to back fill those positioned without a vacancy posting?

What are your thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightfreight (Post 365413)

I agree. If we're overmanned in the S/O position, then secondary fills should eliminate the overage. But now, all the senior guys (over 60) can get any seat they could previously hold , instead of being able to hold what is available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDX1 (Post 365549)

I would think Section 23.A.2. applies.

2. Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 23.A.1. and B.1., the following apply to a pilot subject to a regulated age restriction:

a. If the pilot is involuntarily excessed from his current crew position and, as a result of his restriction, he is ineligible to be awarded or assigned any other crew position, the pilot may be furloughed.

b. The pilot may be bypassed on recall from furlough until there is an available crew position that he is eligible to be awarded or assigned.

c. A restricted pilot who cannot move to or be accommodated as a second officer from another crew position because his relative seniority is less than the current population of second officers or there are no second officer crew seats, shall be offered the opportunity to retire as provided in the Agreement. Following a pilot's rejection of the offer, the pilot shall be released from employment as provided in Section 22.B.1., and shall not be considered as having been furloughed in cases where the only crew status the pilot can occupy is second officer.

So, if the guy turning 65 is less senior than the bottom 727 SO and the company doesn't wish to stretch the manning situation to accomodate him, he gets to retire. Since the bottom SO is the most junior guy in the company, at least for now, this doesn't seem a likely scenario. I think the SO manning will be stretched. Now, since that's Flt Mgts call, if the guy already has 26-30 years with the company, their answer may be something different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnitefr8 (Post 365606)

I agree. If we're overmanned in the S/O position, then secondary fills should eliminate the overage. But now, all the senior guys (over 60) can get any seat they could previously hold , instead of being able to hold what is available.

Not the ones who bid out on 08-01, they no longer have excess privileges ! If they can hold a primary (none in the WB) or secondary (there will be none in the WB) then they can bid another seat. Otherwise their seat for this bid is the one they held on the last bid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cylinderdriver (Post 365630)

No one could have guessed the excess out of the 727 SO seat. They played their cards as best they could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter (Post 365832)

No one could have guessed the excess out of the 727 SO seat. They played their cards as best they could.

True statement, just providing the facts. It means there are less of the senior > 60 crowd that will have the ability to move into the seats they once held. No primary vacancies and no hope for secondary vacancies equates to no where for them to go other than the 757 CA slot if they can hold it. It actually provides a better chance for some of the mid range SO's to move into the WB FO seat.