Losa
06-17-2010 | 08:26 PM
#51
Line Holder
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 97
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Have you even taken the time to read the LOSA stuff put out by the union/company?
06-17-2010 | 08:30 PM
#52
Line Holder
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
"If the results from the LOSA program revealed that say, 20% of the crew force on a given aircraft was incorrectly performing a particular action, which could possibly result in an aircraft accident or death, and the training department was then able to get the word out to the crew force through emphasizing it during recurrent training, would that make a difference?"
You're describing the function of Standards. Line checks examine every captain every year whereas this LOSA is only looking an extremely limited number of flights over just a two month period of time. I cannot see how anything statistically significant can come from a LOSA that Standards doesn't already assess, document, quantify and implement corrective actions.
You're describing the function of Standards. Line checks examine every captain every year whereas this LOSA is only looking an extremely limited number of flights over just a two month period of time. I cannot see how anything statistically significant can come from a LOSA that Standards doesn't already assess, document, quantify and implement corrective actions.
06-18-2010 | 06:29 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 328
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From: ANC-Based MD-11 FO
I'm not in Standards so I don't have first hand knowledge, but I find it unlikely that Standards performs line checks without gathering and analyzing data. Even though people as you suggest, tighten up their performance with an LCA on board, the LCAs still manage to find errors. And people tighten up their performance regardless of who the observer is, whether it's an LCA, a LOSA observer or a jumpseater.
06-18-2010 | 06:00 PM
#54
Line Holder
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 97
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I'm not in Standards so I don't have first hand knowledge, but I find it unlikely that Standards performs line checks without gathering and analyzing data. Even though people as you suggest, tighten up their performance with an LCA on board, the LCAs still manage to find errors. And people tighten up their performance regardless of who the observer is, whether it's an LCA, a LOSA observer or a jumpseater.
I also agree that people will act differently when anyone is watching. That is why LOSA is a long term (3+ year) thing. The crew force has to build up trust with the process and after the 2nd or 3rd go around they (LOSA) should be able to get good valid data. I have talked to my buds at Continental, and it is truly a non event there (they have done 6 or 7 events). Each also speaks very highly of the process and the end result. The only worry I have about the whole thing is if our Management will do anything once the data once is presented to them.
Last edited by Good Beer; 06-18-2010 at 09:02 PM.
06-18-2010 | 07:13 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,203
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From: Gear Monkey
Any Standards guys feel free to chime in here, but to my knowledge the closest thing to data collection/analysis that goes on is the "Line check trends" in Safe sky's. But even if if they did, it would be "best behavior" data.
I also agree that people will act differently when anyone is watching. That is why LOSA is a long term (3+ year) thing. The crew force has to build up trust with the process and after the 2nd or 3rd go around they (LOSA) should be able to get good valid data. I have talked to my buds at Continental, and it is truly a non event there (they have done 6 or 7 events). Each also speaks very highly of the process and the end result. The only worry I have about the whole thing is if our Management will do anything once the data once it is presented to them.
I also agree that people will act differently when anyone is watching. That is why LOSA is a long term (3+ year) thing. The crew force has to build up trust with the process and after the 2nd or 3rd go around they (LOSA) should be able to get good valid data. I have talked to my buds at Continental, and it is truly a non event there (they have done 6 or 7 events). Each also speaks very highly of the process and the end result. The only worry I have about the whole thing is if our Management will do anything once the data once it is presented to them.
06-19-2010 | 12:38 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
From: ANC-Based MD-11 FO
I'm happy as a clam for Continental. If I worked there I'd be thrilled that the LOSA program was such a success. But I don't care at all how it works anywhere else because our management doesn't behave like anyone else. This is not a prediction, it is historical fact: our management will deceive and manipulate whatever they can in order to screw with the pilots so that they get what they want. That management agreed to this in first place should give us all pause to re-visit every little detail about the program to see where they are going to attack in a way that we foolishly failed to foresee, just as they have done with every other program, or "intent" of the contract, or letter of agreement. Unless management demonstrates some good faith in something unrelated, I don't trust them at all with anything including the LOSA stuff.
06-20-2010 | 12:55 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 205
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From: 727 Captain
I don't fully understand the anxiety over this LOSA stuff. From what I do get, this is nothing more than a data collection program. Once the data is analyzed and presented to all of us and the company, the following question will be "what are we going to do with this data now that we have it?"
If the data points to some threat that we can better train to manage or avoid or a common error that we can manage better, are we any worse off having gone through this program than if we didn't do it at all?
This program has cost the pilots nothing. It seems to be a harmless data collection method. There is a chance we might be better off in the end having done it. We could end up with more focused semi-annual training, clearer FOM guidance, better CFM procedures and a new perspective on how we do our business day and night.
For those that think they know it all, they are probably the reason we are doing this in the first place, they might not benefit from LOSA, but they could. For all the rest of us, we might find there is another better way to skin the cat. Or realize that we are doing a good job. The company may very well realize we are doing an excellent job and that could work in our favor during contract negotiations.
If the data points to some threat that we can better train to manage or avoid or a common error that we can manage better, are we any worse off having gone through this program than if we didn't do it at all?
This program has cost the pilots nothing. It seems to be a harmless data collection method. There is a chance we might be better off in the end having done it. We could end up with more focused semi-annual training, clearer FOM guidance, better CFM procedures and a new perspective on how we do our business day and night.
For those that think they know it all, they are probably the reason we are doing this in the first place, they might not benefit from LOSA, but they could. For all the rest of us, we might find there is another better way to skin the cat. Or realize that we are doing a good job. The company may very well realize we are doing an excellent job and that could work in our favor during contract negotiations.
06-20-2010 | 02:47 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
From: Socket Drawer
I don't fully understand the anxiety over this LOSA stuff. From what I do get, this is nothing more than a data collection program. Once the data is analyzed and presented to all of us and the company, the following question will be "what are we going to do with this data now that we have it?"
If the data points to some threat that we can better train to manage or avoid or a common error that we can manage better, are we any worse off having gone through this program than if we didn't do it at all?
This program has cost the pilots nothing. It seems to be a harmless data collection method. There is a chance we might be better off in the end having done it. We could end up with more focused semi-annual training, clearer FOM guidance, better CFM procedures and a new perspective on how we do our business day and night.
For those that think they know it all, they are probably the reason we are doing this in the first place, they might not benefit from LOSA, but they could. For all the rest of us, we might find there is another better way to skin the cat. Or realize that we are doing a good job. The company may very well realize we are doing an excellent job and that could work in our favor during contract negotiations.
If the data points to some threat that we can better train to manage or avoid or a common error that we can manage better, are we any worse off having gone through this program than if we didn't do it at all?
This program has cost the pilots nothing. It seems to be a harmless data collection method. There is a chance we might be better off in the end having done it. We could end up with more focused semi-annual training, clearer FOM guidance, better CFM procedures and a new perspective on how we do our business day and night.
For those that think they know it all, they are probably the reason we are doing this in the first place, they might not benefit from LOSA, but they could. For all the rest of us, we might find there is another better way to skin the cat. Or realize that we are doing a good job. The company may very well realize we are doing an excellent job and that could work in our favor during contract negotiations.
06-21-2010 | 07:15 AM
#59
Banned
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
"I don't fully understand the anxiety over this LOSA stuff. From what I do get, this is nothing more than a data collection program"
Garbage in Garbage out. They need to collect data on a disputed pairings vice the milk runs they currently do.
Garbage in Garbage out. They need to collect data on a disputed pairings vice the milk runs they currently do.
