FDX 777 pay rate decision
09-09-2010, 02:10 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: low hanging fruit
Posts: 116
My point was there was a huge difference in financial pain experienced among the different platforms and seats during 4a2b. The relative financial hit that an MD-11 guy, making $200/hr, was no where near what a junior 727 guy was experiencing with a far more reduced RLG and making $100/hr. Not even close.
09-09-2010, 02:26 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
My point was there was a huge difference in financial pain experienced among the different platforms and seats during 4a2b. The relative financial hit that an MD-11 guy, making $200/hr, was no where near what a junior 727 guy was experiencing with a far more reduced RLG and making $100/hr. Not even close.
Look MGT was the one who made all the decisions on this. They
were the ones who managed any inequities.
Despite what you claim, many of the upper half including myself did in fact sacrifice $$ by the reduced BLG's. a 10-12 hour cut every month for 15 months is a 10-12 hour cut no matter what your pay rate. We all took hits and yes some more than others. There were 757 Capt's and HKG Capt way junior to me were making way more per month than I was. There were Senior 777 FO's making more than I was. I am not blaming them, I don't hold them responsible. I do blame the inequities on MGT.
Let us stop pointing fingers at each other. Remember it was Management, not us line guys who the instituted and implemented 4 A 2 b. Point the finger at them and don't forget.
09-09-2010, 02:49 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: low hanging fruit
Posts: 116
So are you saying a furlough would have been preferable??
Look MGT was the one who made all the decisions on this. They
were the ones who managed any inequities.
Despite what you claim, many of the upper half including myself did in fact sacrifice $$ by the reduced BLG's. a 10-12 hour cut every month for 15 months is a 10-12 hour cut no matter what your pay rate. We all took hits and yes some more than others. There were 757 Capt's and HKG Capt way junior to me were making way more per month than I was. There were Senior 777 FO's making more than I was. I am not blaming them, I don't hold them responsible. I do blame the inequities on MGT.
Let us stop pointing fingers at each other. Remember it was Management, not us line guys who the instituted and implemented 4 A 2 b. Point the finger at them and don't forget.
Look MGT was the one who made all the decisions on this. They
were the ones who managed any inequities.
Despite what you claim, many of the upper half including myself did in fact sacrifice $$ by the reduced BLG's. a 10-12 hour cut every month for 15 months is a 10-12 hour cut no matter what your pay rate. We all took hits and yes some more than others. There were 757 Capt's and HKG Capt way junior to me were making way more per month than I was. There were Senior 777 FO's making more than I was. I am not blaming them, I don't hold them responsible. I do blame the inequities on MGT.
Let us stop pointing fingers at each other. Remember it was Management, not us line guys who the instituted and implemented 4 A 2 b. Point the finger at them and don't forget.
09-09-2010, 02:52 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
I'm not saying that at all. I am absolutely for the intent of 4a2b which was designed to lower BLG/RLG to prevent a furlough. Who wouldn't be for that? I am simply saying that not everyone suffered the same relative financial hit. The reduced BLG/RLG were not equal among the different platforms and that's a fact. I am not saying, nor have I even inferred, that only junior people took a financial hit or that senior people didn't. The vast majority of the pilot group, barring the folks in HKG and 757 guys, took a hit during 4a2b. But there was an unarguable disparity in the different seats. The difference in RLG/BLG between the 757 and 727 was appalling and both are NB. The difference in hours between an MD-11 CA and and 727 CA was nowhere near equal. No one is saying senior people didn't take a hit.
It wasn't them who created the disparity in BLG's.
"In Unity" For Purple Dog
Last edited by RedeyeAV8r; 09-09-2010 at 03:08 PM.
09-09-2010, 03:09 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,433
We are our own enemy. NOBODY should've bid it, period, we had ALL the negotiating capitol while they were sitting on our ramp. But, nooooo, like lambs to a slaughter....we walked happily off to the new airplane...hell, some geeks even proudly displayed 777 lanyards!!!!
Hmm
09-09-2010, 09:54 PM
#68
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: MD-11 CAPT
Posts: 30
Those who forget history are bound to repeat.
I'm getting older and don't have the best memory but I clearly remember that my negotiating committee negotiated an LOA with the company on ULR pay and an issue on instructors assigned to the 777 that was not submitted to the membership because the union felt the company had instituted 4a2b illegally. During the negotiations for that LOA Fedex was not willing to develop a separate pay rate for the 777 but did recognize that those flying the ultra long legs should be compensated extra. Fedex before the last CBA negotiations stated they wanted the most experienced pilots flying international trips. I remember several emails from our former chief pilot saying as much. I believe the new trip rig and block over 8 pay were how it was decided get the more experienced pilots to do this flying. The LOA that was never ratified was their attempt to give an incentive to guys bidding the trips that contained the ULR flights. This was not limited to the 777 but to any trip containing an ULR flight.
As to 4a2b. I for one thought it was a good idea when it first was negotiated as it prevented the junior pilots in our group from being thrown under the bus during an economic downturn. Ask anyone who has been furloughed if they would rather have kept their job at lower monthly compensation or been on the street. I think we all know what that answer would be. We did not lose any benefits, still had a great retirement system, good healthcare, great vacation and pretty good pay and most importantly no one lost their job. Yes, the more senior pilots generally felt less pain but that is what seniority is all about. Never forget that you will be moving up--not down--the seniority list during your career at Fedex. I for one think 4a2b is a good tool but that it does need some controls on its use. Hopefully my NC will work this out.
I also clearly remember pilots being very in your face about not supporting the Paris/Hong Kong FDA LOA. Once again Fedex was very upfront in telling us they wanted to establish one or more new FDAs prior to the negotiations for our current CBA yet we as a group did not make negotiating this part of our plan for the last CBA negotiations. I remember the extensive polling and my NC pretty much negotiated what we asked for. The fact is that we did not even ask to open section 6 of the CBA for negotiations then when after the CBA was approved and in effect the company came to the pilot group and offered an LOA to give incentives to pilots to bid a FDA we were told by many to vote against it. We were getting something for nothing and then my fellow pilots told me to vote against it? I do think we could have gotten a better deal but that is what my NC brought to the MEC and what my MEC recommended I vote for. By the way I had bid and was awarded a Capt slot at CDG.
Bottom line is that every pilot at Fedex makes his own deal with the devil. Some like AM out & backs, some like International flying and some never want to do it. Some have stayed in the 727 forever and sleep in their own bed every night. Some pilots become flex, LCA and SCA instructors and others never go down that path. Some pilots volunteer to do union work and some do not. There are numerous reasons why we all do what we do. However we are nearly all members of the Fedex MEC and we should learn to respect each other and the decesions each other make.
Well enough for this sermon--let the flaming begin!!!
In Unity
As to 4a2b. I for one thought it was a good idea when it first was negotiated as it prevented the junior pilots in our group from being thrown under the bus during an economic downturn. Ask anyone who has been furloughed if they would rather have kept their job at lower monthly compensation or been on the street. I think we all know what that answer would be. We did not lose any benefits, still had a great retirement system, good healthcare, great vacation and pretty good pay and most importantly no one lost their job. Yes, the more senior pilots generally felt less pain but that is what seniority is all about. Never forget that you will be moving up--not down--the seniority list during your career at Fedex. I for one think 4a2b is a good tool but that it does need some controls on its use. Hopefully my NC will work this out.
I also clearly remember pilots being very in your face about not supporting the Paris/Hong Kong FDA LOA. Once again Fedex was very upfront in telling us they wanted to establish one or more new FDAs prior to the negotiations for our current CBA yet we as a group did not make negotiating this part of our plan for the last CBA negotiations. I remember the extensive polling and my NC pretty much negotiated what we asked for. The fact is that we did not even ask to open section 6 of the CBA for negotiations then when after the CBA was approved and in effect the company came to the pilot group and offered an LOA to give incentives to pilots to bid a FDA we were told by many to vote against it. We were getting something for nothing and then my fellow pilots told me to vote against it? I do think we could have gotten a better deal but that is what my NC brought to the MEC and what my MEC recommended I vote for. By the way I had bid and was awarded a Capt slot at CDG.
Bottom line is that every pilot at Fedex makes his own deal with the devil. Some like AM out & backs, some like International flying and some never want to do it. Some have stayed in the 727 forever and sleep in their own bed every night. Some pilots become flex, LCA and SCA instructors and others never go down that path. Some pilots volunteer to do union work and some do not. There are numerous reasons why we all do what we do. However we are nearly all members of the Fedex MEC and we should learn to respect each other and the decesions each other make.
Well enough for this sermon--let the flaming begin!!!
In Unity
09-09-2010, 10:14 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: missionary
Posts: 320
Sorry to be a butt-insky, I fly for UPS.
You might want to consider negotiating for a pay rate with no equipment differences pay. You get paid only by longevity and seat position.
We really like it. Works great. No more chasing airplanes for $$$. Everyone is at top pay scale at 12 years. And even though you may or may not secure a huge pay rate for the 777, you're going to be an old dude before you're senior enough to hold it.
With a single pay rate, even though the comparable top end pay on the largest airplane might be higher somewhere else, it doesn't matter, because everyone is into the top money earlier in the career, where it is more useful.
Just sayin...
Now back to butting out.
You might want to consider negotiating for a pay rate with no equipment differences pay. You get paid only by longevity and seat position.
We really like it. Works great. No more chasing airplanes for $$$. Everyone is at top pay scale at 12 years. And even though you may or may not secure a huge pay rate for the 777, you're going to be an old dude before you're senior enough to hold it.
With a single pay rate, even though the comparable top end pay on the largest airplane might be higher somewhere else, it doesn't matter, because everyone is into the top money earlier in the career, where it is more useful.
Just sayin...
Now back to butting out.
09-10-2010, 07:11 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: MD11 CA (rtd.)
Posts: 318
almost ****ed myself laughing at that one.
Are those the same senior guys that bid carryover every month.....flying 100 hours/month...while everyone else was holding 60 hours on a good month?
Ever stop to consider how a junior guy flying in Anchorage felt about it? Going from MD-11 to 727 SO in memphis on 4a2b pay. That junior guy probably didnt feel ANY pain compared to you.
Are those the same senior guys that bid carryover every month.....flying 100 hours/month...while everyone else was holding 60 hours on a good month?
Ever stop to consider how a junior guy flying in Anchorage felt about it? Going from MD-11 to 727 SO in memphis on 4a2b pay. That junior guy probably didnt feel ANY pain compared to you.
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