Rocco

I hope we don't resort to plan B (there is an increasing number that hope the current plan fails and plan B goes into effect). I hope we get the cards and its a done deal. I believe the "model" the FQS program has ran under for all these years will be "outdated" very soon with the NPRM. M.N. has a history of taking no prisoners when it comes to cutting costs (not too hard to find this info). I do not believe he will hesitate to reduce the staffing of those positions. MEF will become a thing of the past, since most of the time when they are called out to do this, it has been after a day in the training center or "in the office". Can't do it.

There are common things both groups should be focused on. SCS for one. Neither group is flying this stuff and it appears to becoming a larger and larger product being offered to various clients. SCS flying for the IPA would be a win for both groups.

I believe many of the junior FQS's just do not know whom to trust. It's up to them to make a decision. I know a couple that just do not like unions and will not sign their cards. I know a couple that are in over their heads financially and could not take ANY pay cut. The extra $2500 for the ANC guys helps them pay the bills. I just don't think they realize how much they have to lose. There has been a BIG shift on what the IPA thinks about their positions. The next contract it will be VERY apparent.

Funny thing is there are many issues we should be working together on. Not against each other. Full face oxygen, EVAS and other safety measures are coming ONLY because of the IPA's initiative. There are several in UPS management that were instrumental in making this happen, but with out the IPA it would not have happened. PERIOD.

B.T. was serious about the March 11 deadline. Only a couple of the most junior 44 have submitted cards. But the next 70 or so have almost all sent the cards in. So it is interesting that anyone that has working as an FQS for more than say 7 years has signed their card. Anyone junior has not. Those guys senior to you seem to know something you don't.

J Dawg

-DUDE- You are the one who brought up the reference to supplemental ops (which does not apply to UPS, and therefor not relevant to this discussion), not me. Furthermore, the examples I referenced - which do apply- (Q 40 & 41, according to your link), clearly state that training and deadheading are not "free of duty". In other words, they are duty.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass either, but c'mon, even a freshman regional pilot knows he is on duty when deadheading around in the back of an airplane.

31wins

lol, Ok, I'll let you have it your way. Somehow you graduated from the regionals without learning the distinction between duty, rest, and other time obligated to the company that's neither.

J Dawg

And I'm still waiting for you to provide a reference which distinguishes the difference between "duty" and "other time obligated to the company that's neither".

As far as my background, well yes every regional and major I have worked for has spelled this out in their FAA approved FOM (that DH and co business is considered duty). Not so at UPS. That's not your fault or mine.

If you dead head on Company business, and then commit to a full duty period, please submit an ASAP report.

Speaking of "other time obligated to the company that's neither", please don't tell me you are one of these folks who feels obligated to return a company message while on a layover? Here is some more reading material, which makes FOMB 11-05 null and void:

http://cf.alpa.org/Internet/Projects...ullopinion.PDF

(section A)

31wins

JDawg,
I don’t think you seriously care what I have to say, and I’ve spent way more time on this than I should.

But, I think you’re confusing you past company procedures/policies and CBAs with the FARs. I’m talking strictly about the FARs as promulgated and the legal interpretations therefrom—I’m not talking about any union rule or company policies.

Duty starts when you report to fly a jet for the company until you are released.

Rest is time where you have no (i) obligation to the company and must be (ii) prospective, (iii) and continuous.

As far as dead heading around goes, speaking strictly from an FAR standpoint it is not duty. You are not intending to operate the aircraft. I pointed to question 82 to prove my assertion. Yes it refers to a supplemental operation but would still apply to a Flag scenario. The answer to the question states you are not on duty until you report to fly, not when you boarded to deadhead. This question would be just as applicable to a Flag operation or a Domestic operation for that matter, however in the latter case the crew would not be able to accept the flight because they could not “lookback” and find enough rest.

Your reference to question 40 refers to deadheading on day one, and operating on day seven and asks if that is legal. The question does not ask if deadheading on day seven would be legal, so I don’t know why you even posted that one; the answer says the seventh day is not free from duty, which it isn’t because you showed to fly a trip. Day one wasn’t rest since you deadheaded so you need to find a day in the last seven that meets the three requirements of rest-and there are none.

In question 41, again it’s asks about being assigned flight duty and how it relates to the 1 in 7 rest requirement. Sitting in ground school is not rest. But it’s not duty either; you did not show up to fly a plane. In either case, the answers to those questions do not say that ground school is duty or deadheading is duty; you’ve made that cause-and-effect assertion—“if I’m not in rest I must be on duty”.

Again, I don’t think you’re interested in learning something new at this point in your career and that’s fine. The NPRM seeks to address these issues and when/if it becomes the law these things will be worked out.

This thread is about the FQSs not about flight and duty times so I’m out of here, sorry for the hijack.

J Dawg

??? Yes, the question indeed does not ask if deadheading is legal on day seven. Because that's not at issue, and deadheading on day seven is perfectly legal. You seem to be confusing the purpose of rest periods as it pertains to flight time vs. duty time. Rest periods govern flight time limits, nothing more. If you deposition on a DH after a flight assignment, the look back rest period must meet the requirements of the scheduled flight time, not the deposition DUTY period. But that deposition is indeed a restriction on the following look back period for the next flight assignment.

Furthermore, I brought up that example because it clearly labeled training and DH as duty.

Perhaps it is you who should be open to learning something (and not being so condescending). I agree, this thread is about FQS, and my original point was how can FQS get away with working in the office all day, then go out and do a full night of flying.

31wins

I don't mean to be condescendeding, and to come your way I'll say maybe I'm wrong.

But to answer your question above, they can do it because they aren't on duty. The new rules explicitly fix what the old rules DO NOT.

freightretriever

All you guys are assuming the new rules get implemented the way they were written. That's a pretty big assumption IMO. You know what assume stands for.........

CactusCrew

Pretty simple actually for the next day sort. Out of the office and into rest at 1600 allows for a 0100 report. 9 hours of rest is enough for most operations outbound. And even a reduced rest period of 8 hours would be legal in many cases.