FDX - Vacation System a must have
07-31-2014, 05:11 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
I don't keep secrets. I don't think Vacation or Sub is a Zero Sum game and expressing my thoughts to my FOs doesn't impact on my QOL at all. Sub I've talked about 3 or 4 times with the 900xxx folks I've flown with. Vacation, only when I've been asked. In some ways Sub sucks, but it's better than some other airlines where you're not protected at all should mgt canx your trip.
Just me, but even during Negotiations, I could care less if you're bidding around your vacation to max out the buyback. Just don't predicate your life on those $$s-or base your budget on needing a week of carryover. It's a happier life if you're not worrying about paying the bills.
I just don't do it. I value time over money. My high 5 is done. It was done when I was a DC10 SO. Done again as a widebody FO. And now done again as a Capt. I don't look at What Could Be if only I was a 777 Capt on Intl Pay and carryover. If I go out on disability tomorrow, my family will be okay. Won't have multiple planes or vacation homes, but we'll be fine.
This whole summer off idea works great if you can hold a line, pretty much any line at that. But it makes for a busy fall due to the need to do MUV. I like the time off I get every month to recharge. And I don't like huge breaks in flying, don't like feeling a bit uncomfortable when I haven't flown in awhile.
Still, if I was a junior guy, could very easily bid vacation for the last 2 weeks in June or the last 2 weeks in July.
Just depends upon what you want to do.
Just me, but even during Negotiations, I could care less if you're bidding around your vacation to max out the buyback. Just don't predicate your life on those $$s-or base your budget on needing a week of carryover. It's a happier life if you're not worrying about paying the bills.
I just don't do it. I value time over money. My high 5 is done. It was done when I was a DC10 SO. Done again as a widebody FO. And now done again as a Capt. I don't look at What Could Be if only I was a 777 Capt on Intl Pay and carryover. If I go out on disability tomorrow, my family will be okay. Won't have multiple planes or vacation homes, but we'll be fine.
This whole summer off idea works great if you can hold a line, pretty much any line at that. But it makes for a busy fall due to the need to do MUV. I like the time off I get every month to recharge. And I don't like huge breaks in flying, don't like feeling a bit uncomfortable when I haven't flown in awhile.
Still, if I was a junior guy, could very easily bid vacation for the last 2 weeks in June or the last 2 weeks in July.
Just depends upon what you want to do.
07-31-2014, 06:28 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Originally Posted by Rock
One of the best things about our current (expired) CBA is the flexibility it provides all members to conduct their FedEx lifestyle in a manner that suits them. No choice made by any member that falls within the limits of our MEC negotiated and pilot approved contract should be considered "poor form". For reasons outlined in 25.BB.E, flying disputed pairings undercuts the goals and purpose of our CBA and should not be done. Ever.
Management seems to be very eager lately to limit our CBA approved freedoms. Let's not follow their example and try to indirectly take away still more.
Management seems to be very eager lately to limit our CBA approved freedoms. Let's not follow their example and try to indirectly take away still more.
07-31-2014, 06:47 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: MD11 Kitchen Bi*ch
Posts: 263
Lets all remember that "disputed" pairings are only those pairings judged by the pilot reviewers and approved by the SCP. So, in effect, the head dude is signing off that they are onerous.
I fail to see, in this time of "I love you, you love me, We're all one big family" management style how or why these pairings remain. If mgt was really into their own "safety first" sales campaign, they would see how ludicrous and empty their words really are.
We've been told time and again that picking up disputed pairings is an indicator to mgt that they are acceptable to some of us. Once they see that disputed pairing are being snatched up like free buffet tickets in a gulag, the the SCP may not agree to allow them to be called disputed any longer. Then it's everyone for themselves....
IMHO, disputed pairings should never be picked up, regardless of where we are in the contract lifespan.
I fail to see, in this time of "I love you, you love me, We're all one big family" management style how or why these pairings remain. If mgt was really into their own "safety first" sales campaign, they would see how ludicrous and empty their words really are.
We've been told time and again that picking up disputed pairings is an indicator to mgt that they are acceptable to some of us. Once they see that disputed pairing are being snatched up like free buffet tickets in a gulag, the the SCP may not agree to allow them to be called disputed any longer. Then it's everyone for themselves....
IMHO, disputed pairings should never be picked up, regardless of where we are in the contract lifespan.
07-31-2014, 07:35 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by Gunter
So you're saying it's o.k. to do disputed pairings? Or not? You seem to support both sides of the issue.
For whatever reason, the wording in our CBA isn't always clear. But the section on disputed pairings is. So was my wording on where I stand on flying them.
If you can find similar wording in the CBA regarding selling back unused vacation days, I'd love to read it. It might be there. I just haven't found it. If it isn't there, I'm not going to bust a guy's balls for doing it. Or for living in or out of domicile. Or for bidding for pay over seniority. Or for wearing a blazer instead of a parka. Or for using the yellow sweetener packets instead of the pink......
07-31-2014, 08:00 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,622
Originally Posted by Gunter
I continue to disagree with your assertion that the union doesn't support your right to sell back. The union also doesn't post on this website.
Do you know why you may be hearing it's a bad idea in the halls of the AOC? It's because, if your seniority allows you other options, it's better form not to. Just like it's legal but bad form to fly disputed pairings.
I'm pretty sure you already understood this but are baiting me.
Do you know why you may be hearing it's a bad idea in the halls of the AOC? It's because, if your seniority allows you other options, it's better form not to. Just like it's legal but bad form to fly disputed pairings.
I'm pretty sure you already understood this but are baiting me.
"Maybe the union indeed supports selling back your vacation." But as I correctly said earlier, there are many who say we shouldn't and/or say that Union doesn't want us to exercise that CBA right.
Originally Posted by Rock
One of the best things about our current (expired) CBA is the flexibility it provides all members to conduct their FedEx lifestyle in a manner that suits them. No choice made by any member that falls within the limits of our MEC negotiated and pilot approved contract should be considered "poor form".
For reasons outlined in 25.BB.E, flying disputed pairings undercuts the goals and purpose of our CBA and should not be done. Ever. Deciding to live in or out of domicile, use all your vacation or none, or bid senior or junior are personal decisions that are made possible by our MEC negotiated and pilot approved CBA. Posts like the first one in this thread are incredibly useful for offering CBA compliant options to help each of us make our own CBA compliant decisions. And frankly, I'm glad so many guys make so many different choices. Every pilot who chooses a different path than the one I'm on makes my path just a little less crowded.
Management seems to be very eager lately to limit our CBA approved freedoms. Let's not follow their example and try to indirectly take away still more.
For reasons outlined in 25.BB.E, flying disputed pairings undercuts the goals and purpose of our CBA and should not be done. Ever. Deciding to live in or out of domicile, use all your vacation or none, or bid senior or junior are personal decisions that are made possible by our MEC negotiated and pilot approved CBA. Posts like the first one in this thread are incredibly useful for offering CBA compliant options to help each of us make our own CBA compliant decisions. And frankly, I'm glad so many guys make so many different choices. Every pilot who chooses a different path than the one I'm on makes my path just a little less crowded.
Management seems to be very eager lately to limit our CBA approved freedoms. Let's not follow their example and try to indirectly take away still more.
Originally Posted by Gunter
I think it's great Jolly is sharing some good technique. It's bad form to be selling back vacation right now when you don't have too.
Is there another trick in the CBA many of us don't know about?
07-31-2014, 08:54 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Originally Posted by Rock
Come on Gunter. You even quoted exactly what I said about flying disputed pairings. But I'll do it again, "For reasons outlined in 25.BB.E, flying disputed pairings undercuts the goals and purpose of our CBA and should not be done. Ever. " (italics added for emphasis)
For whatever reason, the wording in our CBA isn't always clear. But the section on disputed pairings is. So was my wording on where I stand on flying them.
If you can find similar wording in the CBA regarding selling back unused vacation days, I'd love to read it. It might be there. I just haven't found it. If it isn't there, I'm not going to bust a guy's balls for doing it.......
For whatever reason, the wording in our CBA isn't always clear. But the section on disputed pairings is. So was my wording on where I stand on flying them.
If you can find similar wording in the CBA regarding selling back unused vacation days, I'd love to read it. It might be there. I just haven't found it. If it isn't there, I'm not going to bust a guy's balls for doing it.......
Last edited by Gunter; 07-31-2014 at 09:06 AM.
07-31-2014, 11:43 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
I am definitely going to look into this vacation bidding technique. I am getting weary of bidding VTO's that should be decent, and watching trips that I specifically asked for get awarded to junior VTO holders, when I have no restrictions or conflicts on my schedule. Then when I'm randomly awarded commuter unfriendly trips like am out and backs and 24 hour am layovers, my email questions are ignored (forget anyone ever answering the phone), with no recourse to fix anything. Just imagine how awful preferential bidding would be, now instead of just junior and mid level seniority people getting screwed, even the senior guys would have their chance.
We need any scheduling techniques we can find to fix our schedules, and they really aren't obvious from the contract. Most of it is how crew scheduling and futures choose to interpret things. And often they don't even fully know the contract.
We need any scheduling techniques we can find to fix our schedules, and they really aren't obvious from the contract. Most of it is how crew scheduling and futures choose to interpret things. And often they don't even fully know the contract.
07-31-2014, 09:06 PM
#50
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
Package, I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush. I'm sure there are some pilots who make APC (or some other source) their first stop for contract help, but to say most is a stretch, IMO.
You also make it sound like picking up the contract and getting a definitive answer is as simple as just that. Some areas are pretty straightforward but not all. When it comes to vacation issues, scheduling or pay (especially via sub, overage choices, disruptions, etc.) - I think guys would rather verify what they think they read with someone who has actual experience in the same matter before doing something irreversible. Most of those choices I listed are usually a pretty big deal to most people.
It's also possible that many folks have never had the option to use some of the available scheduling/vacation tools EVER since they can't hold a line. Reading about an option and actually using it on a regular basis are two very different situations.
Just as an example - I tried to find the information Busboy passed on with Kronan's example on expanding the entire value of a vacation period backwards into July by virtue of the one day that was slid backwards. Until he actually stated that information, I read through that section and didn't "get" that nuance. Once he told me, I went back and I think I was able to see how that's the case but only because someone who'd been there/done that told me.
Something you may be unaware of - not all pilot groups have or allow this level of legalese and ambiguity in their CBA.
You also make it sound like picking up the contract and getting a definitive answer is as simple as just that. Some areas are pretty straightforward but not all. When it comes to vacation issues, scheduling or pay (especially via sub, overage choices, disruptions, etc.) - I think guys would rather verify what they think they read with someone who has actual experience in the same matter before doing something irreversible. Most of those choices I listed are usually a pretty big deal to most people.
It's also possible that many folks have never had the option to use some of the available scheduling/vacation tools EVER since they can't hold a line. Reading about an option and actually using it on a regular basis are two very different situations.
Just as an example - I tried to find the information Busboy passed on with Kronan's example on expanding the entire value of a vacation period backwards into July by virtue of the one day that was slid backwards. Until he actually stated that information, I read through that section and didn't "get" that nuance. Once he told me, I went back and I think I was able to see how that's the case but only because someone who'd been there/done that told me.
Something you may be unaware of - not all pilot groups have or allow this level of legalese and ambiguity in their CBA.
I still contend that most don't reference the CBA hardly at all. Guess, I perceive it different than you. I do agree that most who do read it want to verify the verbiage by checking with others. I learn that way best also. I can so though, as a group, I think we are lacking in our contract knowledge. Part is definitely due to the "grey" areas that are present. With Jolly and Bus's info, I think it is helpful and I see where most wouldn't automatically get it. However, that's not what I base it on. I offer to buy liquids on every trip and I talk contract specifics. I am basing it on what I hear. Maybe I am generalizing but I still believe we could be much better at knowing the contract and holding the company's feet to the fire.
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