UPS scabs
12-01-2014, 04:37 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: MD-80/DC-9 Captain
Posts: 121
Originally Posted by Section Eight
Jim,
They say jump, you say how high, no questions, period. No scheduling rules to follow in a CBA, and a loose interpretation of the FARs at best. Try working all day in the sim "checking" to be told to DH 6 hours after you finish for an 8 hour flight only to operate a 10 hour flight once you land. Obviously you would get some rest in a hotel somewhere in there right? Wrong. Sleep on the plane.
No more A fund, B fund, etc. (our mgmt has varying degrees of retirement, based on when you were hired). Hired as a manager in 88? Good deal (maybe), hired as a manager in '14??? Not so much.
The real rub is that these guys fly during furloughs, fly far limits, act like they know it all, and some have little or No experience, yet the are ALL check airmen. Case in point, our newest soon to be master check airmen on the 744. No intl experience, no 744 time (none) but did time at a legacy and was a ground instructor for us, so that makes it all ok, even by our bought and paid for govt agency.
Hopefully you get my point. As to the scab moniker? Some were, ALL would be if we ever went down that road again (97), or they get terminated, that simple. Want the job? Not me.
Most people have done enough research to know not to take that job, yet they fill it, either with IPA pilots (all FO's, to my knowledge not one IPA CPT has left the union to mgmt) looking to cash in, or people you really don't want to go straight to the left seat of anything, unless it's a British auto, yet we let it go on and on.......,,
It's a cancer, and it needs chemo.
Carry on........
They say jump, you say how high, no questions, period. No scheduling rules to follow in a CBA, and a loose interpretation of the FARs at best. Try working all day in the sim "checking" to be told to DH 6 hours after you finish for an 8 hour flight only to operate a 10 hour flight once you land. Obviously you would get some rest in a hotel somewhere in there right? Wrong. Sleep on the plane.
No more A fund, B fund, etc. (our mgmt has varying degrees of retirement, based on when you were hired). Hired as a manager in 88? Good deal (maybe), hired as a manager in '14??? Not so much.
The real rub is that these guys fly during furloughs, fly far limits, act like they know it all, and some have little or No experience, yet the are ALL check airmen. Case in point, our newest soon to be master check airmen on the 744. No intl experience, no 744 time (none) but did time at a legacy and was a ground instructor for us, so that makes it all ok, even by our bought and paid for govt agency.
Hopefully you get my point. As to the scab moniker? Some were, ALL would be if we ever went down that road again (97), or they get terminated, that simple. Want the job? Not me.
Most people have done enough research to know not to take that job, yet they fill it, either with IPA pilots (all FO's, to my knowledge not one IPA CPT has left the union to mgmt) looking to cash in, or people you really don't want to go straight to the left seat of anything, unless it's a British auto, yet we let it go on and on.......,,
It's a cancer, and it needs chemo.
Carry on........
I could be mistaken but your example of checking in the sim all day, DH to an assigned flight, and then flying revenue could be a direct violation of the FARs. You may not have duty limits under flag/supplemental but the company is required to have a fatigue risk management plan. Somehow, I think the pilot in question would be fatigued under this scenario.
Management pilots flying during furloughs, while far from desirable, is not that uncommon in this industry. Management pilots flying struck work is something completely different. In my distant past, when we were released to strike, we agreed to allow management pilots to reposition aircraft to bring them home. No revenue was to be carried. Management agreed to this and it was clearly explained to the pilot group.
Just my opinion, but if you want the management pilots to support the line pilots then welcome them into the fold. Right now they seem homeless as neither senior management or the union will claim them. Again, just an impression from the outside looking in.
Jim
12-01-2014, 07:01 AM
#22
Where's my Mai Tai?
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: fins to the left, fins to the right
Posts: 1,730
Originally Posted by acebaxter
I could be mistaken but your example of checking in the sim all day, DH to an assigned flight, and then flying revenue could be a direct violation of the FARs. You may not have duty limits under flag/supplemental but the company is required to have a fatigue risk management plan. Somehow, I think the pilot in question would be fatigued under this scenario.
Management pilots don't get fatigued. One time I told a FQS he should call fatigued as I was basically flying single pilot. He said not in a million years. You will never find one that will do it. There were two management pilot who flew a 767 NRT-SDF nonstop part 91. He said they did an auto land because they couldn't stay awake.
Just my opinion, but if you want the management pilots to support the line pilots then welcome them into the fold. Right now they seem homeless as neither senior management or the union will claim them. Again, just an impression from the outside looking in.
The management pilot were invited to join the union DOH a couple years ago and they declined.
Jim
Management pilots don't get fatigued. One time I told a FQS he should call fatigued as I was basically flying single pilot. He said not in a million years. You will never find one that will do it. There were two management pilot who flew a 767 NRT-SDF nonstop part 91. He said they did an auto land because they couldn't stay awake.
Just my opinion, but if you want the management pilots to support the line pilots then welcome them into the fold. Right now they seem homeless as neither senior management or the union will claim them. Again, just an impression from the outside looking in.
The management pilot were invited to join the union DOH a couple years ago and they declined.
Jim
12-01-2014, 09:14 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: SDF’s finest dive - Toasting Jungle
Posts: 181
Jim,
There are a lot of things that need to be changed, But as SB posted, they don't fly fatigued, ever. A FAT call from a manager is equvalent to his resignation, it's that simple.
It's extremely hard to navigate the culture if you don't work here, and I mean that. Only here would the impossible, unthinkable, laughable and down right bizarre be normal every day, but that's another thread altogether.
Yes, managers at normal airlines do fly during furloughs, I get that. But they are probably not on the furlough list, nor are they part of the very reason you are actively furloughing, as was the case with us. But would ALPA allow your company to hire a brand new mgmt captain into the left seat while you have people on furlough? I doubt it.
How would that look? Active hiring of one force (management) while another (Union) is being reduced?
Sound to wild to be true? 109 of our guys lived it.
This is all old news, but it comes up every now and then. Like I said, it's a cancer.
Carry on.......
There are a lot of things that need to be changed, But as SB posted, they don't fly fatigued, ever. A FAT call from a manager is equvalent to his resignation, it's that simple.
It's extremely hard to navigate the culture if you don't work here, and I mean that. Only here would the impossible, unthinkable, laughable and down right bizarre be normal every day, but that's another thread altogether.
Yes, managers at normal airlines do fly during furloughs, I get that. But they are probably not on the furlough list, nor are they part of the very reason you are actively furloughing, as was the case with us. But would ALPA allow your company to hire a brand new mgmt captain into the left seat while you have people on furlough? I doubt it.
How would that look? Active hiring of one force (management) while another (Union) is being reduced?
Sound to wild to be true? 109 of our guys lived it.
This is all old news, but it comes up every now and then. Like I said, it's a cancer.
Carry on.......
12-01-2014, 09:24 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
Management pilots are bound by FARS. They basically have no schedule so it's up to the individual to enforce them. They have no protection so no on wants to be the nail sticking up and get hammered.
12-02-2014, 03:07 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 652
Originally Posted by Doorknob
Like ALPA it appears that a few insiders with an agenda at IPA can't see past their nose. Most labor unions actually want more members. I don't know the reasons why they weren't wanted but I'll bet my next paycheck it had to do with where they would be put on the seniority list. I'm sure some blowhard wanted to tack them to the bottom.
So were a couple of numbers worth it?
So were a couple of numbers worth it?
for me as a IPA run on the mill line guy I say no. If the IPA and said yes I don't know if the outcome would have been any different.
I do know that several years ago the IPA tried to get the non union pilots at UPS to sign union cards in a attempt to have them join the IPA. The non union guys turned down the offer.
12-02-2014, 03:54 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by acebaxter
Thank you for the detailed breakdown. From the outside looking in it seems as though the union needs to put on their big boy pants and fix this. In my experience the training departments for the most part are closely aligned with management or the line pilots. Yours seem to be on their own.
I could be mistaken but your example of checking in the sim all day, DH to an assigned flight, and then flying revenue could be a direct violation of the FARs. You may not have duty limits under flag/supplemental but the company is required to have a fatigue risk management plan. Somehow, I think the pilot in question would be fatigued under this scenario.
Management pilots flying during furloughs, while far from desirable, is not that uncommon in this industry. Management pilots flying struck work is something completely different. In my distant past, when we were released to strike, we agreed to allow management pilots to reposition aircraft to bring them home. No revenue was to be carried. Management agreed to this and it was clearly explained to the pilot group.
Just my opinion, but if you want the management pilots to support the line pilots then welcome them into the fold. Right now they seem homeless as neither senior management or the union will claim them. Again, just an impression from the outside looking in.
Jim
I could be mistaken but your example of checking in the sim all day, DH to an assigned flight, and then flying revenue could be a direct violation of the FARs. You may not have duty limits under flag/supplemental but the company is required to have a fatigue risk management plan. Somehow, I think the pilot in question would be fatigued under this scenario.
Management pilots flying during furloughs, while far from desirable, is not that uncommon in this industry. Management pilots flying struck work is something completely different. In my distant past, when we were released to strike, we agreed to allow management pilots to reposition aircraft to bring them home. No revenue was to be carried. Management agreed to this and it was clearly explained to the pilot group.
Just my opinion, but if you want the management pilots to support the line pilots then welcome them into the fold. Right now they seem homeless as neither senior management or the union will claim them. Again, just an impression from the outside looking in.
Jim
The union? We play nice. Deathly afraid to poke UPS in the eye.Especially the current people sitting in our Executive Board. Again...the last guy tried to put an end to this and was promptly ousted.
This scab situation will only get worse here at UPS. They are actively hiring more.
12-03-2014, 04:44 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: MD-80/DC-9 Captain
Posts: 121
Originally Posted by UPSpilott
The union? We play nice. Deathly afraid to poke UPS in the eye.Especially the current people sitting in our Executive Board. Again...the last guy tried to put an end to this and was promptly ousted.
This scab situation will only get worse here at UPS. They are actively hiring more.
This scab situation will only get worse here at UPS. They are actively hiring more.
12-03-2014, 03:06 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 757/767
Posts: 1,128
Originally Posted by UPSpilott
The union? We play nice. Deathly afraid to poke UPS in the eye.Especially the current people sitting in our Executive Board. Again...the last guy tried to put an end to this and was promptly ousted.
This scab situation will only get worse here at UPS. They are actively hiring more.
This scab situation will only get worse here at UPS. They are actively hiring more.
Come on brother you can do better than that.
12-03-2014, 05:03 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by brownie
Oh wait you're not talking about the guy that miscalculated the management card numbers by 30%then screw the pooch out of the membership. That guy?same guy that said ups will never furlough and the minute they do he was gonna file injunction and go after ups?? That guy.
Come on brother you can do better than that.
Come on brother you can do better than that.
I rather have a guy with math deficiency who fights than a guy that bends over...but that's just me.
Separately, Bill Trent got paid 1 million bucks last year. Something to think about. He also works from home. Something else to think about. A quick google search on union compensation will unearth a lot of **** you might not want to know. Dues have been up for how long now?? We are paying higher than ALPA.
Anyone who dares to raise those questions on the mafia board and they will be run over.
Last edited by UPSpilott; 12-03-2014 at 05:15 PM.
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