Thanks for quoting all that; it is making my decision to GTFO all the more easier.

 

Guess what - you aren't OWED the extra five years, or the extra two years on top of that. The 2000's have been right up there with the '70's thanks, in part, to age 65. The difference between the '70's stagnation and the present one is simple:

PAST STAGNATION WASN'T PUT ON THE JUNIOR GUYS BY THEIR OWN CO-WORKERS!

Pipe

 

Again some guys got five extra years in the penthouse and are telling the guys who got five extra years in the outhouse to ****. Makes sense.

Not sure why you guys fed the troll though, if this were a serious proposal ALPA would already be polling so they could ignore it.

 

Guess what, pipesqueak, it wasn't done by YOUR co-workers either. It was ICAO and the Congress. Go weep to them and see if they give a shiite.

Sorry, Sonny Boy, but that is what they call a condition of employment. Accept it or quit. Pretty simple.

In the '90s the B-scale was the condition of employment. You could cry and moan all you wanted, but it was a fact of life. Accept it or pound sand. There are plenty of pilots who will gladly take your seniority number.

Sorry your upgrade was delayed. Sorry you aren't making enough money. Especially sorry you picked this profession.

Enjoy your chicken.

 

Now boys and girls, let's play nice.

I know some of you "young studs" out there think the "old farts" ought to retire (or die) at the earliest opportunity so you can upgrade earlier. I can see (but not necessarily agree with) where you're coming from. But personally insulting remarks about the older guys' hygiene and bodily functions, excess weight, lifestyle baggage, flying ability, etc., are entirely uncalled for. They have to pass the same check rides you do. Many have training and aviation experience that took literally decades to acquire, some of which is not available now at any price. That all comes into play on those dark stormy nights when the measured calm, experience, and judgment born of maturity makes the difference between just another routine operation and a hair-on-fire adventure.

There are marginal, mediocre, and outstanding performers in every age group. Youth does not have a monopoly on excellence.

Bottom line: nobody owes it to anybody else to retire one minute earlier than they want to. If the young bucks want the older guys out earlier, then make it financially attractive. Yes, a certain number will stay till they drop or are forced out, but I think the majority would bail if it didn't cost them so much to do so. Let's make the retirees whole when it comes to buying power, health insurance, etc. At least to where a person who retires now has the same buying power as one who retired when our current max pension went into effect. There are ways to do that without raising the current high-five average or requiring the company to set aside tons more money.

The union is trying very hard right now to avoid any kind of two-tier retirement system or the forced switch to an entirely new scheme. This is a good thing for everyone on the property, and even for those not yet hired. When the younger guys become the old heads, I wonder how many of them will be wanting to hang on till the last bugle themselves.

Personally, I plan to retire while I'm young enough and healthy enough to enjoy being retired. But I have absolutely no obligation to retire early just to make room for someone else. Make it good deal financially, and I won't let the door hit me on the way out. My Negotiating Committee speaks for me, and it's WAY past time!

 

YYesiav8,
While I don't want to come across as being against any pilot's right to work till they die, what probably bothers me, and many others about this topic is the fact that the goalposts keep moving. I'm a Capt, and have been for 10 years now, so I can't complain as loud as others here, but part of the "Benefits" of this profession was that you retired at 60 yrs old. That was a good thing, not bad or discriminitory. The older pilots took a good deal and are eroding it with every bump in the retirement age. I love flying and I love my job...I don't want to be flying at 3:00 AM in freezing Wx when I'm 60..I really question guys who do? Like I said earlier, if you love flying there are lots of jobs/activities you can do that still let you fly well past retirement age. Here's my challenge, after you turn 60 yrs old, a pilot can elect to stay at the airline as an F/O BUT at the bottom of the seniority list., and the lower pay scale...lets see how many of you will do that! after all your still flying. Me thinks many of you guys will be gone in an instant.

 

The fact that some enlisted personnel qualify indicates how bad it is for the lower levels of civilian employed.

Here are some facts from my own experience.

In 1963 I had an after school job that paid minimum wage $1.25 an hour. That $1.25 an hour is $9.67 an hour. Federal minimum wage is now $7.25 an hour.

In 1965 when I was a Private E-1<4mo. The pay was $87.90 mo. Using the CPI calculator that would equal $660.61 mo. in 2014. The pay in 2014 for that pay grade was $1417 a month which is twice the CPI.

The 1965 numbers for the pay grade O-1< 2yr was $294.60. Using the CPI calculator would equal $2214.05 a month in 2014. The pay for that pay grade in 2014 was $2905. Again military pay increases over that time period far exceed the CPI.

You will hard pressed to find any jobs today that pay any where near the rise in CPI unless you reach far into the top 1%. You will not be able to find any normal jobs with pay growth that exceeds the CPI. FedEx and UPS have had the best pilot jobs in the industry post 9/11 but both are still 30-40% behind the pilots employed in the 1960s and 1970s.

 

Vito, How are THEY eroding anything? THEY are just exercising their rights under the FAR's and their CBA's. Is it not their right? You seem to think it is their obligation to forgo their careers so your's can advance. Why should they? Because somebody changed the rules?

Rules change all the time in all facets of life. All the *****ing in the world isn't going to change them back. I understand your frustration, believe me, I do. It's costing me nearly a 1000 numbers right now. But there's not a damn thing I can do about it and calling other pilots names certainly isn't going to help us with the elusive unity we are always pining for.

I don't mean this as an insult, but its time to grow past this...move on and decide that the battle isn't with your fellow pilot. It's with the politicians, number crunchers, lawyers and a whole host of other people who would like to further diminish your career.

Rant over, my apologies to all.

 

I support being able to make ones own choices. However, if you are a widebody captain flying until the day you drop dead (or turn 65), bidding carryover, selling back max vacation, flying draft and blocking your schedule so nobody knows.....you're an a$$. Feel free to do whatever is best for yourself without regard to anyone else, but I can feel free to think you're an a$$. Otherwise, I don't begrudge anyone flying until retirement age, though I'll be out the door by 60.

One thing that we can do as widebody captains, is support a contractual pay increase in particular, for 757 pilots. I know we all want raises, and I surely would like one....but with more 757's on the property every day, and upgrade stagnation, those seats are the ones that need to get the bulk of the pay increases. And buy dinner or at least the dang beer for your FO!

 

This is how ideas such as this gain traction! It's not even proposed yet but here guys in 60-65 age range are salavating at the possibility and now couple of mustache growers in alpa will back this like last time and in a couple of months it will be shoved down the throat of the rest of us. Either way with this now out there, fence sitters are going to hang around till 65 and adopt the wait see attitude to see if they can win two more years at the top on the backs of guys who have taken deep already! Carrer FO pay needs to be addressed no matter what company you work for cause it's only going to get worse. Don't want an age battle or more strife within any Union but how is this avoidable?