Strike Vote at UPS!
09-15-2015, 10:13 AM
#41
Callsign Duchess
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 92
There is zero upside to pecker measuring, ripping open old wounds or "hero in our own mind" attitudes on the internet.
FedEx isn't UPS, and UPS isn't FedEx - to draw parallels out of ignorance about the others' operation is, well...ignorant.
I don't expect the EB to negotiate with the interests of FDX pilots in mind, nor do I expect FDX ALPA to negotiate with the interest of UPS pilots in mind.
We need to focus on a 100% YES vote to help empower the EB and NC to get this thing over the goal line.
FedEx isn't UPS, and UPS isn't FedEx - to draw parallels out of ignorance about the others' operation is, well...ignorant.
I don't expect the EB to negotiate with the interests of FDX pilots in mind, nor do I expect FDX ALPA to negotiate with the interest of UPS pilots in mind.
We need to focus on a 100% YES vote to help empower the EB and NC to get this thing over the goal line.
09-15-2015, 10:28 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
100% agree our contracts are different animals, we traditionally have better work rules and job protection. You guys have better pay rates. That doesnt bother me in the least. As I have said on the whole I'll take our contract.
If the MEC wouldnt work with the IPA in 2006 I would suggest you try again, we have had a lot of turn over in 10 years.
If the MEC wouldnt work with the IPA in 2006 I would suggest you try again, we have had a lot of turn over in 10 years.
09-15-2015, 10:55 AM
#43
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
Dude or dudette, you started it. The fact is you know nothing about 4A2B but you pretend you do. We have not a had a furlough at FDX because of 4A2B. 4A2b does not cut our payrates it lowers the minimum guarantee. So instead of putting people on the street everyone gets more time off. It does not even guarantee no furlough, obviously like your language, but it does guarantee everyone takes a hit. Hell UPS hired non union pilots while guys were on the street.
What brownie and 1800 RVR didn't mention was just how much money was raised in attempting to prevent the furlough. The IPA gave UPS approximately $120,000,000.00 in our voluntary decrease in guarantee. 120 million dollars. And UPS said thanks for that and furloughed anyway.
In truth I don't know the FDX contractual language of 4a2b. Does the language specifically say that 4a2b will be activated to prevent furlough? The, "rumor", was that FDX pilots on the whole were not happy with the 4a2b clause being activated. That the FDX pilot group didn't even know it was in their contract to begin with. Again, that was the rumor. Maybe it was a highlighted talking point before the contract was signed and the rumor mill twisted it.
But to be sure........if the IPA had a similar 4a2b clause, especially with no guarantee of not being able to furlough regardless, UPS would have activated 4a2b in perpetuity. In other words, the IPA would never ever ever ever agree to any clause remotely resembling 4a2b.
In years past, possibly FDX negotiated and operated in good faith with their pilot group. And the 4a2b clause was used with the sole intent of preventing a furlough. I know at UPS, that would be a unicorn and rainbow fantasy.
Or, FDX said the same......thanks for that....having no real plans to furlough. It was in the contract and they used it to save money. Again, negotiating and operating in good faith is not something we have the luxury of at UPS.
And I hope that concept continues for FDX in the future.
Last edited by flyphisher; 09-15-2015 at 11:20 AM.
09-15-2015, 11:28 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
4A2b language is imposed to prevent or delay a furlough. It imposes flying hour restrictions on each pilot in order to spread the pain. Most of the heatburn about implemantation the time it was imposed was the fact that the company controlled the distribution of hours and the airbus and 727 fleets were hit harder than the "international" fleets and reserve guys contractually had to work the same number of days for less pay. Our new TA cleans it up a bit and forces a system bid on the company. The big misunderstanding that UPS pilots seem to have is we worked for "half pay". Not true we worked less days for the same pay rate. One thing we have that I don't think you guys have is carry over. Basically a trip that starts in one month but pays mostly in the next month. It equals about 10 percent of our total flying and generally goes to a select few. The first time they didn't have to limit that. Now they do. On the whole 4A2b is has supporters and detractors. But the truth is if the company is flying less hours it the pain should be shared.
09-15-2015, 11:35 AM
#45
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 798
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
4A2b language is imposed to prevent or delay a furlough. It imposes flying hour restrictions on each pilot in order to spread the pain. Most of the heatburn about implemantation the time it was imposed was the fact that the company controlled the distribution of hours and the airbus and 727 fleets were hit harder than the "international" fleets and reserve guys contractually had to work the same number of days for less pay. Our new TA cleans it up a bit and forces a system bid on the company. The big misunderstanding that UPS pilots seem to have is we worked for "half pay". Not true we worked less days for the same pay rate. One thing we have that I don't think you guys have is carry over. Basically a trip that starts in one month but pays mostly in the next month. It equals about 10 percent of our total flying and generally goes to a select few. The first time they didn't have to limit that. Now they do. On the whole 4A2b is has supporters and detractors. But the truth is if the company is flying less hours it the pain should be shared.
Many of us not only lost LOTS of pay, we were excessed from our seats, put through multiple training cycles, and abused on reserve as we were being pushed out of seats that were supposedly overmanned.
I personally was flown to FAA maximums and then into my last days off in a seat that I was being excessed from because.........wait for it................ it was "overmanned". That's the kind of cool stuff that lurks in 4a2b.
Ignore the previous poster.
Pipe
09-15-2015, 11:45 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by pipe
Boy did you gloss that over.
Many of us not only lost LOTS of pay, we were excessed from our seats, put through multiple training cycles, and abused on reserve as we were being pushed out of seats that were supposedly overmanned.
I personally was flown to FAA maximums and then into my last days off in a seat that I was being excessed from because.........wait for it................ it was "overmanned". That's the kind of cool stuff that lurks in 4a2b.
Ignore the previous poster.
Pipe
Many of us not only lost LOTS of pay, we were excessed from our seats, put through multiple training cycles, and abused on reserve as we were being pushed out of seats that were supposedly overmanned.
I personally was flown to FAA maximums and then into my last days off in a seat that I was being excessed from because.........wait for it................ it was "overmanned". That's the kind of cool stuff that lurks in 4a2b.
Ignore the previous poster.
Pipe
Would you prefer to furlough with everyone getting guarantee and flying extra? Like I said, a furlough won't hurt me much, dump it if you want.
09-15-2015, 12:23 PM
#48
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 90
I don't think it's so much...it happened 10 years ago....."Get over it".
The Fred of the past wanted to take care of his pilot group. I hope the Fred of the future has the same concept.
I think highlighting that hourly pay event of 10 years ago does go a way to explain the difference between the FDX group and the IPA. In years past, because Fred did so well take care of his pilot group, the pilot group complied with what he wanted. In years past, there was a spirit of cooperation that has not existed at UPS.
I think times started changing particularly with the purchase of Tigers. The FDX pilots would know better. I know voting in ALPA was a big step towards ticking Fred off. So maybe that too was an approximation of a tipping point of good faith.
If 4a2b was clearly written with the sole intention of preventing a furlough and Fred was honest to his word of why it was activated, then so be it. The downside is as pipe said.......the agony wasn't evenly distributed. That is the downside to a clause concerning reduction in pay. The junior guys get hosed. In an all volunteer save the furlough attempt, those that can, do. And the results show the determination of the IPA group (120 million is not a small number), in an all volunteer effort to save furloughs. And nobody gets hosed besides of course the furloughs. But they were totally grateful for the attempt. Not to mention the COBRA and xmas presents. Of course when UPS said thanks for that and furloughed anyway, we continued to be unified with more strength of purpose. UPS had in effect just ripped us off for 120 million and laughed all the way to the bank.
And that is the difference. A volunteer effort and an invoked clause are two completely different things. A volunteer effort demonstrates unity. An invoked clause creates dissention.
Yes we do have carryover.
No we did not think FDX pilots were at a 50% pay cut nor that the hourly rate had been reduced. We knew that was a reduction in guarantee. It was about a 33% pay cut? Something like that. Maybe 25%? But we knew not 50%.
The Fred of the past wanted to take care of his pilot group. I hope the Fred of the future has the same concept.
I think highlighting that hourly pay event of 10 years ago does go a way to explain the difference between the FDX group and the IPA. In years past, because Fred did so well take care of his pilot group, the pilot group complied with what he wanted. In years past, there was a spirit of cooperation that has not existed at UPS.
I think times started changing particularly with the purchase of Tigers. The FDX pilots would know better. I know voting in ALPA was a big step towards ticking Fred off. So maybe that too was an approximation of a tipping point of good faith.
If 4a2b was clearly written with the sole intention of preventing a furlough and Fred was honest to his word of why it was activated, then so be it. The downside is as pipe said.......the agony wasn't evenly distributed. That is the downside to a clause concerning reduction in pay. The junior guys get hosed. In an all volunteer save the furlough attempt, those that can, do. And the results show the determination of the IPA group (120 million is not a small number), in an all volunteer effort to save furloughs. And nobody gets hosed besides of course the furloughs. But they were totally grateful for the attempt. Not to mention the COBRA and xmas presents. Of course when UPS said thanks for that and furloughed anyway, we continued to be unified with more strength of purpose. UPS had in effect just ripped us off for 120 million and laughed all the way to the bank.
And that is the difference. A volunteer effort and an invoked clause are two completely different things. A volunteer effort demonstrates unity. An invoked clause creates dissention.
Yes we do have carryover.
No we did not think FDX pilots were at a 50% pay cut nor that the hourly rate had been reduced. We knew that was a reduction in guarantee. It was about a 33% pay cut? Something like that. Maybe 25%? But we knew not 50%.
09-15-2015, 01:16 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 642
FDXLag,
I'll tell you my story about the last go-around concerning negociations. We (UPS crew) were picked up by the hotel van after we landed. The van driver asked if we could wait for a FedEx crew that just landed, no problem we said. The FedEx crew got in the van and the Captain said "Thanks for waiting, it's a pleasure to be around pilots who have a union with balls!" We just sat there speechless, when his F/O said "Jim, don't start this crap again, can't you just sit down and be quiet!" The Capt looks at us and says, My F/O has no balls and neither does he"' as he pointed to the Flight Engineer. The discussion got a little uncomfortable for the remainder of the ride to the hotel with the Captain holding court. The FedEx F/O , who was an older guy, and I took the elevator up to our floor. On the elevator he said that the Capt was a jerk and if FedEx pilots went on strike Fred Smith would hire Phillipine Airlines to haul FedEx cargo. at the time Phillipine Air was having financial issues. I told the F/O that Phillipine Air only has about 35 big jets, and could never replace the 600 jets FedEx flies, he said "Really, only 35". Then he said, " It's easier for UPS to have a strong union, because all the other labor groups were unionized and they would walk if the pilots went on strike". He told me only the pilots at FedEx are unionized and no other labor groups would honor a pilot strike. I told him, "If the pilots don't fly the planes there's nothing the other groups could do anyway". He looks at me and said "Fred will replace us". I was surprised by how
much fear and confidence he had about even a threat of a strike and its implications to the pilots. From what I'm reading on APC lately, it looks like most of the FedEx pilots are dissatisfied with the T/A and hopefully you guys will hold out for a more lucrative and better agreement. I hope that F/O I met that night, isn't the majority. A lot of my FedEx bro's seem determined to get a better deal, good luck to you guys.
I'll tell you my story about the last go-around concerning negociations. We (UPS crew) were picked up by the hotel van after we landed. The van driver asked if we could wait for a FedEx crew that just landed, no problem we said. The FedEx crew got in the van and the Captain said "Thanks for waiting, it's a pleasure to be around pilots who have a union with balls!" We just sat there speechless, when his F/O said "Jim, don't start this crap again, can't you just sit down and be quiet!" The Capt looks at us and says, My F/O has no balls and neither does he"' as he pointed to the Flight Engineer. The discussion got a little uncomfortable for the remainder of the ride to the hotel with the Captain holding court. The FedEx F/O , who was an older guy, and I took the elevator up to our floor. On the elevator he said that the Capt was a jerk and if FedEx pilots went on strike Fred Smith would hire Phillipine Airlines to haul FedEx cargo. at the time Phillipine Air was having financial issues. I told the F/O that Phillipine Air only has about 35 big jets, and could never replace the 600 jets FedEx flies, he said "Really, only 35". Then he said, " It's easier for UPS to have a strong union, because all the other labor groups were unionized and they would walk if the pilots went on strike". He told me only the pilots at FedEx are unionized and no other labor groups would honor a pilot strike. I told him, "If the pilots don't fly the planes there's nothing the other groups could do anyway". He looks at me and said "Fred will replace us". I was surprised by how
much fear and confidence he had about even a threat of a strike and its implications to the pilots. From what I'm reading on APC lately, it looks like most of the FedEx pilots are dissatisfied with the T/A and hopefully you guys will hold out for a more lucrative and better agreement. I hope that F/O I met that night, isn't the majority. A lot of my FedEx bro's seem determined to get a better deal, good luck to you guys.
09-15-2015, 04:19 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
It's a good story, at least 10 years ago. Of course it sounds like the captain could survive a strike by selling a boat, nothing wrong with that. No one has been more adamant about saying no than me since our 2006 vote, my one and only yes so far. That said, this TA aint that bad. I could live with it, if it gets voted down, I can live with that. We took the interim deal in 2011 to give you guys a chance to close a deal, it didn't happen. Maybe if we say no you guys can take the lead.
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