GucciBoy

That Feb. '14 MD-88 capt. won't be flying any redeyes...pros and cons, pros and cons.


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Molon Labe

And remember that FEDEX has A LOT more large widebodies and has shown no propensity to Joint Venture away cream of the crop flying, whereas Delta is slowly eliminating it's large widebody flying, and replacing the retirement of large widebodys with trickle orders of A350's not due for a long time.You will get to higher pay rates faster at FEDEX in all probability.

Adlerdriver

Most pilots who flew during Vietnam war and then became airline pilots began timing out about a decade ago.

Pretty tough to find enough pilots who fit into that generation still flying 121 to use it as a meaningful metric for retirement numbers in 2016. Maybe someone who flew some refugees out of Saigon during the last days as a brand new 23 year-old LT in 1975 might still be hanging on somewhere. He'd be 63 now.

I would say most pilots who fall into the "Vietnam era" moniker are in their seventies or older and long since retired.

Huck

Don't forget... Delta is just now sitting down to work out a contract.

That could get real ugly.

birdeater

Fair enough. Let's just call them the "Boogie Nights Era Pilots". How's that? You know, big mustaches, still drag around their leather chart bags, won't go paperless? Yeah, those guys.

Albief15

The whole 400 pilots verses 1000 at DAL and 1000 at UAL wasn't about relative seniority, rather just the raw numbers of available opportunities. There are 2.5 slots at DAL and UAL for each FDX slot...that was my point. Or about 6 slots at the big 3 to each FDX slot. Somebody is going to fill those... Some of those folks may have a choice between carriers.

Flying Boxes

FedEx is hiring the same % of pilots as Delta.

Delta seniority list is almost three times FedEx seniority list.

Pilot applicant is more likely to get hired at Delta.

Seniority advancement will be similar at both companies for new hires.

FedEx has many more pilots on Wide Bodies (both # & %) & higher pay/less work

Delta's future is more variable than FedEx, but both have reasons for concern.

Best retirement depends on age of new hire.

KC10 FATboy

As someone who has worked for both companies, let me give you my two cents. Although I left Delta to come to FedEx, I have nothing against Delta. They're a good company to work for (the best USA airline in my opinion ... both from a worker and customer perspective). My post will probably ramble on and have all kinds of grammar errors, please be kind.

To the OP: Congratulations! Go to the company that puts you in a class first. After starting class you'll get an airline ID and you'll be able to jumpseat. I suggest you jumpseat on both companies to get an idea of what life is like. After seeing it first hand and reading through all of these posts, make your own decision based on what's best for you and your family. Quality of life is measured differently person to person. (end of the short version)

To Albie: No personal attack here. I used your interview service, best damn money I ever spent and I recommend it to everyone, FedEx hopefuls or other airlines. However, I think you've been on a FedEx bash for quite some time now and it saddens me. Life's very good here at FedEx, but we do have issues. Who doesn't?

However, at no point in my career will Delta retire a higher percentage of pilots per year than FedEx (this is a one time snapshot look using APCs retirement numbers and current total pilot size). That is using my math (warning public math) and I could be wrong. I created a spreadsheet that adds retirements per year and divides by the number of pilots. Delta never exceeded Fedex. In fact, not even the combined AA pilot group (AA and US Scareways) exceeded FedEx's retirement percentages. The only group to exceed FedEx was United and that occurs in the last 5 years of my career.

Here's the Pros and Cons of both ... from my perspective. Your version will most certainly vary.

Delta:

Commute:
Initially NYC based. Covered LGA, JFK, EWR. 60% on seniority list in airplane category. Lived in NJ/PA due to military job/reserves and was 45 minutes from EWR or any of the NYC bridges/tunnels. If I had a trip to LGA/JFK, I always had to plan an extra 2-3 hours for my driving commute. Yes, traffic can suck that bad (even at night, when they shut down lanes/bridges/tunnels for construction). Back then the toll to get into NYC was $13. I also had tolls on NJ or PA turnpike. The first couple of hours of a trip were to pay for my commute. Most of my trips ended in NYC in the evening / rush commute time. Two of my longest commutes were going home (4+hour drives!!!). Many of my trips had a check-in around the 5am hour. So I was getting up at 1am to go to work. (Sounds like FedEx).

Eventually I was based in CVG and then DTW. Life became much easier. I don't see how people sit Reserve in NYC at Kew Gardens. I would kill myself if I had to do that. Back then, a cab from Kew Gardens to EWR was around $85.

Delta's jumpseater commuter policy is much better than FedEx's. Provided you met the requirements, you can jumpseat to a long haul flight and nobody gives a f.

Schedule:

On narrow body domestic flying, I almost always checked in early morning and then flew 3-5 legs a day in and out of Atlanta. Lots of flying to Florida. After going to CVG and DTW, the legs became longer and started experiencing mini-transcons. For example, LGA-MSP-SFO. Also had red eyes.

My biggest beef with Delta's schedule was that you would arrive into Atlanta and have 40 minutes before your next flight blocked out. In 40 minutes, you walk to your next gate, grab a bite to eat, go use the bathroom, get the paperwork from the gate agent, and pre-flight the next jet. Going from T concourse to E concourse was not unusual. In other words, you were rushed. We considered it winning the lottery if we were keeping the same jet we brought in.

At Delta domestic, you typically don't meet at the pilot lounge and brief like FedEx pilots do. Usually I would meet the Captain at the airplane 30 minutes prior to push. Delta international has a formal crew brief like FedEx, but not domestic.

Domestic flying at Delta is easier than night turns at FedEx. However, at Delta, you're going to fly a lot more. For example, my peer at Delta, in the same airplane I fly at FedEx, had 600+ hours this year in October whereas I only had 140 hours. International flying at Delta is pretty much the same at FedEx.

The Job:

At Delta, you are a frontline employee to the customer. Therefore, you deal directly with customers and it isn't always pretty. In fact, I got sick of having to apologize to customers for when Delta goofed or for things beyond our control (bad weather, ATC issues, etc.etc.). I became numb to it all. You also have flight attendants and they can be the greatest thing that's ever happened to you or your worst nightmare, usually more towards the latter.

Delta pilots hide in the concourses to stay away from the passengers. Otherwise you end up answering non-stop questions. Sure its fun at first, but explaining a couple of times a day that you don't smoke and you don't know where the smoke room is, or you don't know when such and such flight is leaving ... on and on and on ... gets on your nerves. The lego YouTube video "Living the Dream" highlights this perfectly. Perhaps I wasn't cut out for it. I'm ok with that.

The new FARs on work rest may have alleviated fatigue issues at Delta; however, during domestic flying I saw a lot of minimum crew rest time layovers. Take into account the walk through the airport, then waiting for your hotel van or shuttle, the drive to and from the hotel etc.etc.., 6 hours of sleep was very normal. Delta had a rule of "8 hours behind the door" of something like that, but honestly that was violated a lot. And normally your short layover occurred on a leg where you knew you would most likely be late getting into the airport.

In the 10.5 years I spent working for the USAF, I was rarely sick if ever. However, I noticed after flying for Delta, I got sick a lot with a cold or maybe the flu. I blame this on being in airports with thousands of people each day at work. I would start a trip perfectly healthy and at the end of the trip I would be coughing or hacking up something.

Management:

Delta's management is much friendlier than FedEx's. Delta's team communicates a lot and directly to the crew force, even on a weekly basis. They also had what I would call open mic townhall discussions online. No question was off limits. However, I would cringe when you only had an hour to talk to the leadership team and someone would ask Richard, "what's your favorite food?"

At Delta, management stood behind the aircrews. As long as your decision was "I did it because I thought it was the safest course of action at the time" or you didn't intentionally set out to violate a rule, or cause an accident/incident, Delta backed you up 100%. It was hard to get fired there. However, Delta is dominated / controlled by "in-flight" ... the flight attendants. They are very influential in decisions being made about line operations. Also, the gate agents control the airplane when it is at the gate. You're just a pilot flying the airplane. Most decisions on the ground are made by them and this can be extremely frustrating.

FedEx Express:

Commute:

FedEx doesn't like jumpseating to long haul. Technically it violates the FOM and you aren't protected should you miss your flight. Also, with the pull out of DAL in Memphis, commuting to Memphis became a lot tougher for many locations. Double leg commutes from most cities.

Schedule:

Night hub turns suck. There's no easier way to put it. Leave city XYZ in the evening, fly to a hub, sit there during the package sort for 3-4 hours, then fly late at night/early morning back to XYZ, usually arriving just as the sun is rising. That's the worst thing about this job. However, FedEx does offer sleep rooms at the hubs.

Free coffee and juice drinks at the hub and on the airplane. Free soft drinks on the airplane. Free popcorn at the hub.

I become a night owl when I fly nights. I tend to sleep in and get up in the late afternoon. I always try to get some sunshine before going back to work. Flying nights doesn't bother me if I am getting good sleep. But trying to sleep in a hotel during the day time can be challenging. The maids will bother you. Other guests will make noise. Many rooms don't block out the sunlight. Family calls your cell phone. It is very challenging.

Flying at night, ATC clears you direct to destination. You will fly a lot of non-tower operations which scared me at first but not a big deal now. Civilian trained pilots are probably laughing at that comment.

Day flying at FedEx is the easiest damn flying anyone can do. Get to work around 2pm. Sign in. Fly one leg to layover city. Have dinner then fly back home or layover and go have beers. If laid over, fly back in the morning and land around noon. Rinse repeat.

FedEx does have some two leg flights, but they're rare. Typically you fly one leg in to the hub, one leg out. Then layover. There can be come morning / AM flying where you show to work around 3-4AM, fly a two or three leg round robin back to the hub and be finished before noon. Usually locals fly those.

A lot of folks who night hub turn live in the city their airplane lays over. For example, they leave the house at 8pm, drive to the airport, operate the flight to MEM, then fly back, and then drive home and be home around 6-7am. No hotels. Sleep in your own bed every night (day). Rinse repeat. Senior guys on days do the same thing.

International flying at FedEx is the same as at Delta except that FedEx can have very long layovers. And as an RFO, you might have 3-4 day layovers in Paris or another international destination. Those trips go senior.

We also have cafeterias where you can get meals if hungry. Catering is provided depending on segment length. 777 meals are amazingly good. You'll get fat if you eat everything that's available to you. 757 pilots get "scoobie snacks" and you'll love them if you think non-fat, gluten free, sugar free, egg free, peanut and tree nut free, milk-free brownies that taste like saw dust are good. LOL ... there's some things I like in there but I rarely eat the scoobie snacks.

Also, unlike Delta, A LOT of our trips start, end, or both start and end with a company provided commercial deadhead ticket on a passenger carrier. You can deviate from the schedule and use the money provided for the ticket to your own advantage. It's complicated, a lot of rules. But if you're smart and live in good locations, you can live wherever you want and FedEx will essentially pay for your airline ticket to/from trips. Seniority helps of course. I almost made Diamond medallion on Delta last year. And I've sat in first/business more than any employee has at Delta. But at FedEx we don't get employee passes, which is a nice benefit, but is hard to use when Delta keeps their planes full nearly 85% of the time.

FedEx also has airport and hotel standbys, both in the field and at the hubs. Some people love these, some people hate them. Typically they are for reserve crews but these standbys can also be found on certain pairings in the big packets for line flyers. I pick up a day airport standbys all the time. As long as the weather is good and things are running smooth, I show up for 5 hours, then go home.

The Job:

Unlike Delta, you see your buds at the hub every day/night because everyone is there all at once. During the sort you have a lot of time to chit-chat with friends, play on the internet, or phone home to family.

No concourses to walk through. We do have security, both going to and leaving work. Even at large airports, pilots can park in the local FedEx parking lot and walk right into the building using their ID badges (no off-site parking with company busses). If the airport charges for parking, FedEx pays for it up to a limit. However, at the larger hubs, we have off-site parking and have to use company provided busses to get to/from.

You're not a frontline employee. You don't see the customer. You show up, brief, fly, layover, fly, and then go home. Nobody bothers you while at work in flight. It's the closest thing to heavy military flying I've seen. You know everyone at work or at least you've seen them many times (the flight coordinators, cleaning crew, bus drivers, mechanics, ramp agents ... especially true if your seniority "holds" a line to the same city and you bid it a lot).

The limo or van driver to the hotel is almost always on time and waiting for you when you land. FedEx doesn't do the "you'll have to catch one of our shuttles on the at the top or bottom of the hour" crap.

FedEx likes the newest equipment to make the job better and more efficient, except for buying used 757s (don't get me started). But they do have a glass cockpit. iPads, tough notebooks, HUDs with EFIS are installed on the airplanes. You'll do more CATIIs and CATIIIs at FedEx since landing in fog at night is almost an every week type of thing at some locations.

Also, FedEx IT systems are night and day compared to Delta's. The joke at Delta is, "Delta IT, bringing you 80s technology today."

Management:

FedEx's management team doesn't communicate as much like Delta's. You are often in the dark as to the state of the company or operations. There's more of an adversarial relationship at FedEx. Although it isn't UPS, it isn't Delta either. Company interprets the contract differently than the union which causes issues. Lot's of grievances. Union almost always loses. The pilot group is not very united.

I joke around and tell people you work for John Grisham's "The Firm". Seriously, there's some truth to that. FedEx will fire you in a heartbeat for petty theft or will fire you for violating company policy after they've warned you. Also, if you're involved in an accident or incident, they're not as forgiving as Delta.

Contract:

There's pros and cons to both obviously. And everything can change given a disaster in the economy, bankruptcy, and or a new union negotiating committee.

NO PBS/YES WE HAVE PBS:

FedEx doesn't officially have PBS. However, for secondary bids, they have a PBS like system. After this contract goes into full affect, we will have a system that is PBS for bidding secondary lines. This is a week long discussion (pros and cons of PBS). At NWA, they loved PBS because the union controlled it. I didn't like PBS per se at Delta but it did offer you a lot of flexibility. PBS in the hands of FedEx management would be disastrous! Which is why I don't bid VTOs/secondary lines.

Being on reserve is MUCH better at Delta than FedEx. Nearly everything at FedEx is a short callout. You almost always will be on a shortcall and must be near the hub on your reserve days. Delta is just the opposite. At Delta, you can sit long reserve on the west coast for east coast trips.

Vacation, Delta doesn't come close to FedEx's. As a relatively junior pilot with 2 weeks of leave at FedEx, I was able to turn that into almost two months off from work.

Pay: Most pilots at FedEx are on wide body pay (the higher pay scale). At FedEx, you'll get to the highest pay rate for FO faster, you'll make narrow body captain faster, you'll make wide body captain faster than you will at Delta. With the current contract, you're going to make more money at FedEx. At Delta, if you live in a major hub and avail yourself to greenslips when disasters occur (thunderstorms or snow in Atlanta), you're going to make a lot of money too.

Retirement: FedEx has an A-fund and the value is diminishing with inflation each year (thanks Yes voters). The younger you are, the worse the deal is for you. FedEx does have a B-fund at 8% (will become 9%). FedEx uses Vanguard, but we now can use our own broker/investors. There is a Roth 401K option, but excuse my ignorance, I think most pilots at FedEx make too much money to fund a Roth. Maybe this can be utilized using the backdoor option? At Delta, I believe you are still locked into Fidelity. Delta's B-fund is no laughing matter (15%). Invested wisely, and if you are young, you're going to be wealthy.

RISK/Future:

Both have risk. One of my biggest concerns working at Delta was all of the joint venture and code sharing of tickets with other airlines. As some indicated, Delta seems to not be increasing wide body international flying, and in some markets, have pulled out due to competition. Its almost like Delta management would rather have you fly international as a code share than on their own airplanes. Also, foreigners do not like Delta and Delta's service (in-flight) gets very bad reviews when compared to world airlines.

Ultra Low Cost Carriers. Spirit and Allegiant are the fasting growing airlines. Delta pulled out of Memphis. Last year Allegiant now has more destinations out of MEM than Delta. Allegiant is also rapidly growing in CVG. Sure, Allegiant is more of a leisure market, but they are stealing passengers away from the legacies. Same with Spirit. Delta charges a premium for their tickets. And that has been working for them. But I suspect with the ULCCs growing, one of the big four (DAL, UAL, AA, SWA) is going to feel the pinch. UAL is in trouble. But seeing DAL costing so much, that could hurt them.

Passenger Belly Freight: This has already impacted the cargo operators. However, FedEx is expanding and growing. The TNT deal should be good for Fedex and makes them better to compete with UPS and DHL.

Middle East Three and other stupid legislation: Huge threat to both airlines. If ME3 get their way, Delta could be greatly harmed. If they don't, FedEx may see routes through those countries canceled. I think they're a greater threat to Delta. Delta has to find a way to up its game in the in-flight area of their product. Old bitter flight attendants aren't going to do it. They've made good strides in fixing their product (seats and airplanes), but it is the people who are going to make or break you.

Long winded. My two cents. Been there done that. FedEx was a better fit for me and family arrangement.

Nightflyer

KC10--

Nice explanation and comparison.

I've been at FedEx for quite a while, and your assessment, IMHO, is very accurate.

PotatoChip

Great post FATboy. Thanks!