Scooter74

thanks everyone!

Anyone have any other suggestions on "must haves" not previously mentioned?

I was wondering if any of the FMS options usually seen in these planes is WAAS approved?

Owner has a 2 with all the above mentioned mods going for a prebuy and Phase V on Thursday. He is still open to looking at lower priced V's and Ultra's though. Does anyone ahve info on overhaul costs for the Ultra and V engines? (or are they the same range as the II ?)

thanks again for all the input everyone has provided. This will be my 1st type/jet flying, are there any pointers on how to get through training successfully? My times are a bit lower (2100TT/310ME) than your typical captain and the co-captain will be just over 800hrs, 370Multi.

BoilerUP

Most Citation IIs don't have "FMS" per se - its normally a KLN90B or maybe a GNS-XLS. If you want WAAS in an early Citation II, you're probably going to be looking at a dual GNS 430W/530W install.

The V and Ultra still have JT15D engines, so their overhaul cost should be in the ballpark of 650-750k (similar to the C-II).

The CE500 is a very easy airplane to learn and fly - systems are simple and its forgiving. Being your first type, don't skimp on training - attend SimuFlite or FlightSafety, or SimCom at a very minimum for initial. I did my CE500 initial at SimCom MCO and was very pleased with it...but I had 3000 hours, over 1200 in jets, and 50 hours in type before I went.

You *will* have trouble getting insured with low flight time like that...especially if your owner wants more than $5-10M liability.

The underwriter will probably want 50-100 hours of "mentoring" before allowing you to act as PIC (you'll need 25 to get rid of the OE limitation on your new type anyway), and your "co-captain" simply isn't qualified to be PIC with 800 hours. They'll also probably want 6-month training for the first year.

You and your owner need to get insurance squared away NOW to prevent any nasty surprises in the coming months that could result in somebody losing their job due to inability to bind coverage.

Scooter74

thanks again Boiler for the solid input.

We did get the insurance set up first before we started looking. If we weren't able to be insured in the II, we were looking at King Air 200's as a fall back. You were pretty close as to what they would want. The are requiring we attend one of the Big 3 training schools. We selected Simcom's 14 day initial. Seemed long but I figured the extra time can only help. I could only get 2mil smmoth the 1st year, but assuming a clean record they would consider higher in coming years. Both pilots are going for the PIC type, but I will be the only one able to be insured as PIC. I got lucky in the mentor pilot department. They are only requiring a "sign-off" from the mentor pilot, so when he/she feels we are safe then we can be set free. Although it may take 25-50hrs, there is no requirement. the owner would like to see us take the jet for an extended weekend and fly it till the mentor feels comfortable. This may or may not work out, but sure will be FUN! I can tell you that the insurance the first year is QUITE HIGH!!!! (25Kish!).

The second pilot has hopes of being insured as a PIC for the second year, I have my doubts but hell, I was surprised I was insurable!

The aircraft we are currently looking at has a 530/430 combo, but i am not sure if they are already WAAS upgraded or not. I guess worse case senario we could pull them out and upgrade (3000.00 each+plus install).

Can any shed some light on the the single pilot waiver for these birds? What do they do different in training that makes it a different (and full week) course? My understanding is that I wouldn't even have the required time in the plane to get it until the second year.

BoilerUP

Call SimCom and specifically ask for Dick Goethe as your CE500 instructor - he's retired TWA and doesn't have much time in the Citation...but he's an EXCELLENT instructor. Also, if you haven't done so already verify that SimCom will do a PIC type without 1000tt for your colleague - I know FSI won't but don't know SimCom's policies.

For your first jet type rating, with no previous time in type, and a copilot who is also low-time with no jet experience, 14 days nonstop will *not* be too long for training. Now 17 days for a CE525s rating with 61.58 check, after having a CE500 type and 400+ hours in Citations...THAT is too long!

$25K is high for a Citation II with $2M liability...but actually quite reasonable considering pilot qualifications. Many 1000tt pilots going into Meridians or Mirages from a 4-place piston have first-year insurance bills that high or higher...and after about 400-500 incident-free hours you should see your insurance expense be cut by 30-40%.

If you do the WAAS update to the plane's existing GPS units you may not just need the boxes updated - you may need new antennas and wiring. Not cheap, but much cheaper than a spanking-new install. You'll want this done during the pre-buy if it needs to happen!

Scooter74

Thanks Boiler, I'll check on SimComs PIC policy tomorrow. The insurance only will require him to get an SIC, but for 1500 more we figured might as well do the PIC.

I didn't think about that the antenna upgrade either, I'll call the seller and see if they are WAAS or not. Maybe the service center can give me a rough guess as to what the upgraded wire and antenna would run while in prebuy.

Are there any specific areas that I may want to get a head start on or may cause me to get tripped up in training?

BoilerUP

SimCom will teach you what you need to know from a systems perspective, but it never hurts to come into class knowing your memory items & limitations cold.

Simcom Citation 550 Manual.pdf

Scooter74

Thanks yet again!

I'll start looking over the material this week. I'm currently studying the ATP gleim, figured i might as well go down with the test complete and kill 2 birds with the one stone.


What is the check/type ride like? How will I fare with a lower time "SIC" next to me?

BoilerUP

I did my ATP/CE500 type on the same check and found it to be quite easy, but then again Dick Goethe (my instructor) was my SIC for the ride and I had a lot of Level C/D sim experience so I understood the "training game". Having flown with your colleague previously will help you IMO, but as long as you train together and study together once there you should be fine.

You'll get all the boxes you need checked during training there, but you'll fly the checkride profile almost EVERY.DAY. The hardest part of the check is the circle at JFK because the sim visual isn't great, but its not difficult at all. You're a paying client and the instructors want their record to be good, so they'll get you ready for the ride.

If you've never been in a full-flight simulator you'll likely find the sim is WAY more pitch/roll responsive than the actual airplane, which makes flying it precisely more difficult than the actual plane but will make your skills sharp for the type ride.

Pay attention in class, work hard in sim, ask questions when you don't know something and you'll be fine...but don't stress, don't over-think things, get a workout in at least every other day, and enjoy a brew or two with your dinner every night.

Scooter74

AAHHHH......B-E-E-R!

Thanks, I am listening to you, it is making me a bit more at ease, but there is still that "pucker factor" I am not able to shake!

My sim experience is limited to Frassca 141/242/242T non-motion sims, and with the exception of the Chieftain course i took last year at RTC, it is all over 15years old! (Damn, I feel old!). RTC was great for getting the insurance certificate, but I don't know how well the training really was.

Is there any additional items when doing the ATP with the type?

Oh, almost forgot, do you know of any companies that have computer programs for the performace charts/weight & Balance charts for faster/more accurate flight planning? How close is the Fltplan.com performance to actual plane?

Ewfflyer

Sidenote: For a WAAS install, the boxes are replaced, new wiring is added as well as new antenna's.

As far as looking at a 530/430W vs the non-WAAS, you can't tell a difference at face value, but they will be new ones installed. Few menu items are added, but nothing crazy.

If you can have Roll Steering(GPSS) to your AP, that's highly recommended also if it hasn't been done before. It's very practical with the WAAS features