Lockdown and Civil Unrest Discussion
04-26-2020, 03:41 PM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by Setopbug
I can totally understand and empathize with your desire to get to work. It's been a month and it's killing me to not have an airplane to fly right now.
But your willingness to accept personal risk is not a decision you get to make for others. Your desire to disregard the professionals we have that spend a lifetime in public health and our practitioners, virologists, researchers and epidemiologists isn't wise. It's an emotional reaction to a perceived threat to your livelihood.
Rushing back to work now will result in much more damage to our economy and our infrastructure. We have to come through the other side of this with our healthcare system, pathetic as it is compared to the rest of the world, intact. Able to treat sick people. We cannot afford to needlessly kill much larger portions of the population than a return to normal ops would result in.
The experts are as close to correct as we're going to get. Just because they don't always get it perfect means we should abandon their counsel and start listening to politicians who can barely form a coherent sentence.
And what sucks the most? Is that we don't have the leadership in place to handle this. There's no coordinated response. No political detente as both sides set aside their concerns and act together for the good of country.
Just small groups of governors from both parties doing the best that they can. And many of them aren't up to the task.
It will be safe to go back to work when you see the White House open for daily tours again. It will be OK to drag your family to Hawaii and spend money when you see state houses open, with elected officials doing your work.
It will be safe to go back to work when agencies like the CDC says it is, and their scientists' conditions are all met.
Until then, it isn't safe for any of us to be out and about.
But your willingness to accept personal risk is not a decision you get to make for others. Your desire to disregard the professionals we have that spend a lifetime in public health and our practitioners, virologists, researchers and epidemiologists isn't wise. It's an emotional reaction to a perceived threat to your livelihood.
Rushing back to work now will result in much more damage to our economy and our infrastructure. We have to come through the other side of this with our healthcare system, pathetic as it is compared to the rest of the world, intact. Able to treat sick people. We cannot afford to needlessly kill much larger portions of the population than a return to normal ops would result in.
The experts are as close to correct as we're going to get. Just because they don't always get it perfect means we should abandon their counsel and start listening to politicians who can barely form a coherent sentence.
And what sucks the most? Is that we don't have the leadership in place to handle this. There's no coordinated response. No political detente as both sides set aside their concerns and act together for the good of country.
Just small groups of governors from both parties doing the best that they can. And many of them aren't up to the task.
It will be safe to go back to work when you see the White House open for daily tours again. It will be OK to drag your family to Hawaii and spend money when you see state houses open, with elected officials doing your work.
It will be safe to go back to work when agencies like the CDC says it is, and their scientists' conditions are all met.
Until then, it isn't safe for any of us to be out and about.
I think you are incorrect. There is currently growing disagreement among experts and professionals who think we have gone down the wrong path.
The data from NYC shows those that are healthy have a 4 in 1,000 chance of dying (if infected). Those are very, very low odds. The data shows it is very safe for most of us to be out and about.
It is now well known what risk factors can cause a fatal COVID-19 reaction, and those people at high risk can be easily isolated until the threat subsides.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page
The hospitals in the Northeast are currently at 50% capacity, in some places medical professionals have been laid off due to lack of business. I believe you are documenting your agenda but not much of it is based on evidence or fact, instead you are thinking through the tunnel vision of irrational fear. You claim others have an emotional reaction yet you apparently haven't looked in the mirror or read what you have typed.
04-26-2020, 03:42 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by Setopbug
Post peer reviewed science that shows your assertion to be true or shut up.
04-26-2020, 03:46 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 501
When safety is assured the flying public will regain confidence and bookings will return. Scream out the hick rally cries all you want. Reality can’t be changed.
04-26-2020, 03:46 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 539
Originally Posted by Setopbug
I can totally understand and empathize with your desire to get to work. It's been a month and it's killing me to not have an airplane to fly right now.
But your willingness to accept personal risk is not a decision you get to make for others. Your desire to disregard the professionals we have that spend a lifetime in public health and our practitioners, virologists, researchers and epidemiologists isn't wise. It's an emotional reaction to a perceived threat to your livelihood.
Rushing back to work now will result in much more damage to our economy and our infrastructure. We have to come through the other side of this with our healthcare system, pathetic as it is compared to the rest of the world, intact. Able to treat sick people. We cannot afford to needlessly kill much larger portions of the population than a return to normal ops would result in.
The experts are as close to correct as we're going to get. Just because they don't always get it perfect means we should abandon their counsel and start listening to politicians who can barely form a coherent sentence.
And what sucks the most? Is that we don't have the leadership in place to handle this. There's no coordinated response. No political detente as both sides set aside their concerns and act together for the good of country.
Just small groups of governors from both parties doing the best that they can. And many of them aren't up to the task.
It will be safe to go back to work when you see the White House open for daily tours again. It will be OK to drag your family to Hawaii and spend money when you see state houses open, with elected officials doing your work.
It will be safe to go back to work when agencies like the CDC says it is, and their scientists' conditions are all met.
Until then, it isn't safe for any of us to be out and about.
But your willingness to accept personal risk is not a decision you get to make for others. Your desire to disregard the professionals we have that spend a lifetime in public health and our practitioners, virologists, researchers and epidemiologists isn't wise. It's an emotional reaction to a perceived threat to your livelihood.
Rushing back to work now will result in much more damage to our economy and our infrastructure. We have to come through the other side of this with our healthcare system, pathetic as it is compared to the rest of the world, intact. Able to treat sick people. We cannot afford to needlessly kill much larger portions of the population than a return to normal ops would result in.
The experts are as close to correct as we're going to get. Just because they don't always get it perfect means we should abandon their counsel and start listening to politicians who can barely form a coherent sentence.
And what sucks the most? Is that we don't have the leadership in place to handle this. There's no coordinated response. No political detente as both sides set aside their concerns and act together for the good of country.
Just small groups of governors from both parties doing the best that they can. And many of them aren't up to the task.
It will be safe to go back to work when you see the White House open for daily tours again. It will be OK to drag your family to Hawaii and spend money when you see state houses open, with elected officials doing your work.
It will be safe to go back to work when agencies like the CDC says it is, and their scientists' conditions are all met.
Until then, it isn't safe for any of us to be out and about.
Personally I’m not worried too much about death. Maybe it’s 5% maybe it’s .001% We do not have enough data to state conclusively. Nor is that my personal primary concern, rather I suspect we’re not asking the right questions.
We need to be asking for why this virus is deadly to some and not the others. What mechanism is in place that allows some to be ok while others die a nasty death? Why are there some that have lung scarring and blood clots while others do not?
Questions like that will get us closer to an open and stable economy. Until we have confidence in the answers to those questions we are blindly betting on others lives. Oh and let it be known that there is still no conclusive evidence to say whether or not reinfection is possible and at what rate?
Yes I really want the economy reopened. However if we jump the gun on this we will only shoot our self in the foot and further harm our economy. That potential outcome is unacceptable in my opinion.
04-26-2020, 03:49 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by NeverHome
Agreed 100%
Personally I’m not worried too much about death. Maybe it’s 5% maybe it’s .001% We do not have enough data to state conclusively. Nor is that my personal primary concern, rather I suspect we’re not asking the right questions.
We need to be asking for why this virus is deadly to some and not the others. What mechanism is in place that allows some to be ok while others die a nasty death? Why are there some that have lung scarring and blood clots while others do not?
Questions like that will get us closer to an open and stable economy. Until we have confidence in the answers to those questions we are blindly betting on others lives. Oh and let it be known that there is still no conclusive evidence to say whether or not reinfection is possible and at what rate?
Yes I really want the economy reopened. However if we jump the gun on this we will only shoot our self in the foot and further harm our economy. That potential outcome is unacceptable in my opinion.
Personally I’m not worried too much about death. Maybe it’s 5% maybe it’s .001% We do not have enough data to state conclusively. Nor is that my personal primary concern, rather I suspect we’re not asking the right questions.
We need to be asking for why this virus is deadly to some and not the others. What mechanism is in place that allows some to be ok while others die a nasty death? Why are there some that have lung scarring and blood clots while others do not?
Questions like that will get us closer to an open and stable economy. Until we have confidence in the answers to those questions we are blindly betting on others lives. Oh and let it be known that there is still no conclusive evidence to say whether or not reinfection is possible and at what rate?
Yes I really want the economy reopened. However if we jump the gun on this we will only shoot our self in the foot and further harm our economy. That potential outcome is unacceptable in my opinion.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page
Ignorance is not an excuse to advocate destructive public policy.
04-26-2020, 03:54 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 472
'Until we have confidence in the answers to those questions we are blindly betting on others lives'
This is the crux of the argument. I may be thick but I don't see how me going out is betting on someone elses life. Surely that individual should take ultimate responsibility for their own safety. Yer I get that some are immuno comprimised.......
This argument I feel is akin to stopping people driving on the freeway because it threatens other peoples lives. Its just wacky logic.
I am open to being convinced otherwise.
Oh and this whole right to life stuff is baloney.....everyone should read Starship Troopers. None of us are special.
This is the crux of the argument. I may be thick but I don't see how me going out is betting on someone elses life. Surely that individual should take ultimate responsibility for their own safety. Yer I get that some are immuno comprimised.......
This argument I feel is akin to stopping people driving on the freeway because it threatens other peoples lives. Its just wacky logic.
I am open to being convinced otherwise.
Oh and this whole right to life stuff is baloney.....everyone should read Starship Troopers. None of us are special.
04-26-2020, 03:55 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 539
Originally Posted by OVC010CB
The data from NYC shows those that are healthy have a 4 in 1,000 chance of dying (if infected). Those are very, very low odds. The data shows it is very safe for most of us to be out and about.
You may be willing to risk your own health, so be it. However this is a situation where individuals personal decisions have a great impact on others.
04-26-2020, 04:01 PM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by NeverHome
Just because the risk of death is down does not in any way imply it is safe to go back out. As we continue to learn more about this virus and some of the side effects for the living, we are finding data that shows this virus is dangerous for other reasons.
You may be willing to risk your own health, so be it. However this is a situation where individuals personal decisions have a great impact on others.
You may be willing to risk your own health, so be it. However this is a situation where individuals personal decisions have a great impact on others.
The risk of death was never "up". You are making assertions without showing any scientific evidence, yet demanding others present peer reviewed literature.
It's OK to be scared and not want to go out because you are scared. It's understandable and a lot of people are. But don't go around claiming you are basing your decisions on reality and science, because you are rejecting the massive amounts of science and data that has been accumulated on this disease.
For those of us that do not have comorbid conditions, there is literally no risk from COVID-19. There is no risk for children and the healthy, and it is completely unacceptable to lock up people that do not have risk.
The greatest risk for a severe COVID-19 reaction is obesity. So yes, I'll agree with you obese people are causing great harm and cost to society with their behavior.
The data shows this is a disease that is risky for people that are already sick. Society can only do so much to reduce the risks of preventable illness -- and quite frankly destroying the economy and locking up healthy people and children will not be part of the "plan", I can assure you.
04-26-2020, 04:01 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 539
Originally Posted by OVC010CB
The data from the New York City Department of Health answers the questions you have. It is known why some die from COVID-19 and most survive.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page
Ignorance is not an excuse to advocate destructive public policy.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page
Ignorance is not an excuse to advocate destructive public policy.
Im sure you are well aware that findings require others scientists to review the data and conduct their own investigations. Once that is complete we may only then have a consensus. As of now there is zero consensus! Why? Because the data is largely incomplete. It will take quite a while to review all available data and preliminary findings before the overwhelming majority reach consensus.
This consensus is what prevents fringe entities from taking us down the wrong path. To allow such a thing is ignorant.
Let me restate this:
Ignorance is not an excuse to endanger the public
04-26-2020, 04:05 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 539
Originally Posted by OVC010CB
The risk of death is not "down".
The risk of death was never "up". You are making assertions without showing any scientific evidence, yet demanding others present peer reviewed literature.
For those of us that do not have comorbid conditions, there is literally no risk from COVID-19. There is no risk for children and the healthy, and it is completely unacceptable to lock up people that do not have risk.
The risk of death was never "up". You are making assertions without showing any scientific evidence, yet demanding others present peer reviewed literature.
For those of us that do not have comorbid conditions, there is literally no risk from COVID-19. There is no risk for children and the healthy, and it is completely unacceptable to lock up people that do not have risk.
Second line: what proof do you have that there is no risk to children? It’s been known that children have been infected and in some cases hospitalized.
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