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Old 11-22-2020, 07:21 PM   #21  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
Seriously? How would they know? Absence of vaccination doesn’t show. We could, I suppose, require them to wear a yellow cloth badge sewn to their clothes.... I know, not funny. But the point is this is an issue that is non-trivial and it’s going to quite possibly take a massive education campaign. And even then in certain populations. Amish and Orthodox Jewish for instance.
I don't see it being applied to people walking down the street. Any organization where you have an ongoing indoor presence (school, work, youth stuff, etc) could easily require vaccination. Might see some businesses like restaurants require it, since customers are in a high-density environment for an extended period.

There will of course be an app for that. I guarantee someone is working on it already. Might even be a functionality in existing apps (facebook, etc). This has in fact already happened for covid contact tracing, how hard is it to add vaccine verification?
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:22 PM   #22  
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I hope we are applying this term appropriately. Some folks delay vaccines until their child is a bit older, some space them out versus a bunch at once, some choose certain vaccines while not others. Its not an either or situation.

I have always limited my meds intake because I'm young healthy. If I get sick I stay home and let my body work it out. Sometimes I take them. My child has some special needs and the doctors of course right away offered meds as part of the solution. We declined...in *that* case. Ive taken flak for avoiding meds akin to what I hear spewed at "anti vax". People need to cool their jets.

People ago my immediate next door neighbor lost their 1.5 year old within 24 hours after their well child visit and vaccine catch up (due to covid they avoided the doctor for the spring and summer...and really the fall too.) I also served directly side by side with a young woman who got messed up so bad from a shot shes now officially getting out this December. Saw that with my own eyes. Let's all have a little grace. Which I highly doubt will happen.
That is heart breaking. Their kid died after getting vaccinated? What happened?
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:29 PM   #23  
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There’s no rules requiring your kids to be vaccinated just to go to school. No public school can force that on you as a requirement at least not where I live.
Sure they can. Kids aren't going to school now in many places. If they can keep you out because of covid they can keep you out because you didn't get vaccinated for covid.

They still have to provide education, and will do so... via zoom. But most kids need parental supervision for that work even sort of OK.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:33 PM   #24  
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That is heart breaking. Their kid died after getting vaccinated? What happened?

This is how the whole anti-vaxx thing really got going, anecdotes on anonymous internet forums

If you're really interested in vaccine safety stats, the actual data is out on the websites of reputable organizations.

The risk is non-zero, it is a risk vs. benefit tradeoff. Kind of like seatbelts... it might stick in the buckle, trapping you in a burning vehicle. It's happened, in fact my grandfather had a story about trying and failing to save someone in that situation. But he still wore his seatbelt.
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Old 11-22-2020, 11:42 PM   #25  
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The rumor mill is already fierce.

“I’ve heard it causes sterility and birth defects.”

Most of the people I talk to are saying they want to wait on it. They think it was rushed. They’re getting their news from
Facebook.

I think that vaccine fear is going to significantly delay this recovery.
I think many are going to take it. They’d rather take it and be done with it.
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Old 11-23-2020, 03:30 AM   #26  
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Forced vaccinations are not Constitutional.

People are free to determine their own level of risk.

U.S. Supreme Court

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)Jacobson v. Massachusetts

No. 70

Argued December 6, 1904

Decided February 20, 1905

197 U.S. 11


The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.

It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine.

The highest court of Massachusetts not having held that the compulsory vaccination law of that State establishes the absolute rule that an adult must be vaccinated even if he is not a fit subject at the time or that vaccination would seriously injure his health or cause his death, this court holds that, as to an adult residing in the community, and a fit subject of vaccination, the statute is not invalid as in derogation of any of the rights of such person under the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Wisconsin State Supreme Court recently invalidated a shut down and mask order issued by the Governor, under his emergency powers provisions. The court stated that a governor's emergency powers cannot be unlimited and must be ratified by the legislature. In Jacobson v. Mass, it was a an act of the legislature, and the Supreme Court held it to be valid.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:06 AM   #27  
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Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post

U.S. Supreme Court

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)Jacobson v. Massachusetts

No. 70

Argued December 6, 1904

Decided February 20, 1905

197 U.S. 11


The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.

It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine.

The highest court of Massachusetts not having held that the compulsory vaccination law of that State establishes the absolute rule that an adult must be vaccinated even if he is not a fit subject at the time or that vaccination would seriously injure his health or cause his death, this court holds that, as to an adult residing in the community, and a fit subject of vaccination, the statute is not invalid as in derogation of any of the rights of such person under the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Wisconsin State Supreme Court recently invalidated a shut down and mask order issued by the Governor, under his emergency powers provisions. The court stated that a governor's emergency powers cannot be unlimited and must be ratified by the legislature. In Jacobson v. Mass, it was a an act of the legislature, and the Supreme Court held it to be valid.

Buck vs Bell
argued in 1927 and citing Jacobson as a precedent. Also used by Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg to attempt to defend their actions.

And there is no way in H€|| it would be decided this way today:

Quote:
The judgment finds the facts that have been recited and that Carrie Buck 'is the probable potential parent of socially inadequate offspring, likewise afflicted, that she may be sexually sterilized without detriment to her general health and that her welfare and that of society will be promoted by her sterilization,' and thereupon makes the order. In view of the general declarations of the Legislature and the specific findings of the Court obviously we cannot say as matter of law that the grounds do not exist, and if they exist they justify the result. We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 25 S. Ct. 358, 49 L. Ed. 643, 3 Ann. Cas. 765. Three generations of imbeciles are enough.
Times change. The law changes. Anyone who doesn’t think mandatory involuntary sterilization (or mandatory immunization) wouldn’t have to be relitigated is a fool. Citing a precedent from when eugenics was prominent and when ‘separate but equal’ was the law of the land won’t stop it from happening.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:33 AM   #28  
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You can be denied entry into businesses, as they have a right to refuse anyone.
Actually the government thinks otherwise... Being open to the public means that businesses cannot discriminate, according to the government.

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Originally Posted by GateAgent007 View Post
There are plenty of carrots (and sticks) in the arsenal to encourage vaccine adoption. And none require the threat of jail.
Coercing peaceful people to do anything against their will is vile and the very definition of tyranny not to mention.
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:48 AM   #29  
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U.S. Supreme Court
The Supreme Court is NOT the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine.
Depends on the specific state Constitution. But there is no authorization for the federal government to mandate vaccines.


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Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
The highest court of Massachusetts not having held that the compulsory vaccination law of that State establishes the absolute rule that an adult must be vaccinated even if he is not a fit subject at the time or that vaccination would seriously injure his health or cause his death, this court holds that, as to an adult residing in the community, and a fit subject of vaccination, the statute is not invalid as in derogation of any of the rights of such person under the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Wisconsin State Supreme Court recently invalidated a shut down and mask order issued by the Governor, under his emergency powers provisions. The court stated that a governor's emergency powers cannot be unlimited and must be ratified by the legislature. In Jacobson v. Mass, it was a an act of the legislature, and the Supreme Court held it to be valid.
Even if forced vaccinations are legal in state constitutions, the reality would go something like this:

"OK, you bring your needle and I'll bring my .45 and we'll see who makes the bigger hole"
~~ Michael Badnarik (Libertarian candidate for President in 2004)
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:49 AM   #30  
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Actually the government thinks otherwise... Being open to the public means that businesses cannot discriminate, according to the government.

Coercing peaceful people to do anything against their will is vile and the very definition of tyranny not to mention.
You need a drivers license to drive a car. Is that tyranny?

At some point, being a responsible citizen requires doing things you may not want to do. Time to put on your big boy pants.

Or exile yourself like the Amish.
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