Originally Posted by RonRicco (Post 2393208)

Can somebody please tell me what deifintion we are using for "deadzoner?"

Somebody called me a "deadzoner" the other day and I told them "I was not." Yeah am over 50, but If I make it to 65, with pretty conservative assumptions, I will be about where I was with the DB without having to draw down the 401k balance. If I draw down the balance to age 90, I will be way ahead.

That being said, markets crash and recessions happen which could affect the assumptions, but annunities and DB's are not immune either as we have seen at least once in our career..

Anyway, so what is the definition of a deadzoner?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2393148)

I talked extensively with multiple people about retirement during the last contract. The reality was that it got very little play on the contract surveys. The notion that deadzoners controlled the process is also incorrect. The reality was there are about 2500 true deadzoners out of over 12000 pilots at the time. Many deadzoners who invested well unlike me were satisfied. The market performance since 2009 has put many pilots in a good position. When you add up the MPP cash, Note cash, claim cash, PBGC pension and merger stock even a investment idiot like me is looking pretty good in retirement. I am better off than NW friends who had their plan frozen hired in my time frame.

Originally Posted by WhiskeyDelta (Post 2393061)

What I meant by "weren't serious about [retirement restoration]" was the deadzoners weren't willing to go the distance (vote no en masse until they got what they wanted). By acknowledging you didn't think a better deal could be had, you've proven my point. So, the majority of deadzoners unfortunately became reluctant "yes" voters and, therefore, are looked upon as not having taken their restoration demands "seriously."

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 2393273)

I think the next contract we will see a sizable push in the retirement direction.



Denny

Originally Posted by WhiskeyDelta (Post 2393135)

I am absolutely not saying good riddance to the older pilots. But the reality is that with every passing month dozens of that group retire. Given they could have controlled their fate on this topic last contract cycle, they have no one to blame other than themselves. That's why I always chuckle at those blaming the so-called 82% for TA2s passage. In reality, it should be the estimated 60% representing the deadzoner group.

I'm also tired of the newer guys of being accused of throwing the older guys under the bus. Management has to love the irony of people that weren't here during the decimation of retirements becoming the newest straw men. We weren't responsible for that so I think it's best you keep your anger pointed at management.


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Originally Posted by WhiskeyDelta (Post 2393275)

I agree that's where we're headed now. A complete package has to benefit the entire group. Active and retiree healthcare will be my biggest items going forward.

My resentment on the subject comes from the ones who are trying to blame the new guys for their lack of a retirement. As if we somehow owed them to vote down this last contract that didn't include retirement restoration. It's so backwards it's infuriating. As I alluded to above, the newer guys have become in the eyes of some scapegoats and convenient straw men.



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Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 2393279)

Wow. From your last paragraph YOU seem to be the angry one. I have not experienced what you claim. No you weren't responsible for the losses. Neither were the pilots that were here during that time. 9-11, SARS, bankruptcy and the bankruptcy laws were. But the pilots that were here DID suffer some serious losses that you didn't experience. Do you just want to ignore that? Sounds like it.



Denny

Originally Posted by WhiskeyDelta (Post 2393282)

Ignore it? Or course not. But, it doesn't take a genius to realize all the company has to do is to say no to real restoration. Based on the last contract, whose resolve would be greatest in the long run?


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Originally Posted by Herkflyr (Post 2393005)

I will vote against ANY TA that "restores" a DB plan, and I suspect that most of the seniority list feels the same way.