What I meant by "weren't serious about [retirement restoration]" was the deadzoners weren't willing to go the distance (vote no en masse until they got what they wanted). By acknowledging you didn't think a better deal could be had, you've proven my point. So, the majority of deadzoners unfortunately became reluctant "yes" voters and, therefore, are looked upon as not having taken their restoration demands "seriously."

With $10 billion in stock buybacks, there is money to address retirement, medical or increases in the DC. I get the feeling you are saying good riddance to the older pilots, no soup for you. Ironically, it was not very long ago senior pilots were accused of throwing everyone under the proverbial bus.

I am absolutely not saying good riddance to the older pilots. But the reality is that with every passing month dozens of that group retire. Given they could have controlled their fate on this topic last contract cycle, they have no one to blame other than themselves. That's why I always chuckle at those blaming the so-called 82% for TA2s passage. In reality, it should be the estimated 60% representing the deadzoner group.

I'm also tired of the newer guys of being accused of throwing the older guys under the bus. Management has to love the irony of people that weren't here during the decimation of retirements becoming the newest straw men. We weren't responsible for that so I think it's best you keep your anger pointed at management.


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Probably more of the younger folks would be for a pension restoration if they didn't think it would just be taken away again, creating a new batch of dead zoners.

Exactly. If anything, this episode has shown pensions aren't guaranteed and we'd be foolish to put all of our eggs into one basket again.


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I talked extensively with multiple people about retirement during the last contract. The reality was that it got very little play on the contract surveys. The notion that deadzoners controlled the process is also incorrect. The reality was there are about 2500 true deadzoners out of over 12000 pilots at the time. Many deadzoners who invested well unlike me were satisfied. The market performance since 2009 has put many pilots in a good position. When you add up the MPP cash, Note cash, claim cash, PBGC pension and merger stock even a investment idiot like me is looking pretty good in retirement. I am better off than NW friends who had their plan frozen hired in my time frame.

I have always been told the deadzoners numbered about 8000 so that's where the 60% come from. Heck even some of the more levelheaded dudes on CC have acknowledged the deadzoners could have controlled their fate.

Now I'm curious why you say there were only 2500.


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We were down to about 7000 pilots when we merged with NW. Hard to imagine how we had 8000 deadzoners. Deadzoners made up a slice of that 7000. They were pilots age 45 to 55 hired from 85 to 91. A large number were already retired by the time the contract was done. 2500 might even be a generous number.
Edit: There are about 4700 pilots on the Deadzoners portion of the list. Subtract the NW pilots and you end up with just under 3000 pilots who fit the deadzoner description.

I agree.

I don't even trust that my military pension will be there when I retire from the airline and am saving accordingly. I certainly hope it's there, but I've found hope to be a very poor game plan in past experiences. I also expect greedy politicians will change the laws and tax my Roth IRA before I ever draw a dime. I know that FedEx still has their pension and there is a part of me that daydreams about pulling down 2 pensions when I hit 65, but then the rational side clobbers me over the nugget and points to what happened to most airline pensions when times got tough.

Can somebody please tell me what deifintion we are using for "deadzoner?"

Somebody called me a "deadzoner" the other day and I told them "I was not." Yeah am over 50, but If I make it to 65, with pretty conservative assumptions, I will be about where I was with the DB without having to draw down the 401k balance. If I draw down the balance to age 90, I will be way ahead.

That being said, markets crash and recessions happen which could affect the assumptions, but annunities and DB's are not immune either as we have seen at least once in our career..

Anyway, so what is the definition of a deadzoner?