Get rid of Virtual Basing!
#121
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
I'd like to see some data. How many, what categories, etc. exceed max pick up. I suspect this is a new hire, junior issue but I could be wrong. Anything that limits schedule changes would be suspect for me. VBs are an obvious loss of bid package flying available to choose from. That's my issue with VBs. And productivity related reduction in jobs.
Schedule flexibility is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. If you have to pick up a trip with a few hours extra to get the days off you want/need and still have a normal pay month so be it. I don't think many will pile on for regular pay but again I could be wrong. Data is needed.
Schedule flexibility is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. If you have to pick up a trip with a few hours extra to get the days off you want/need and still have a normal pay month so be it. I don't think many will pile on for regular pay but again I could be wrong. Data is needed.
You don't see a productivity gain with guys flying 90+ hours at straight pay? And yes, seeing some data would be good for both how VB affects us and how guys flying to FARs affect us.
You are kind of proving my point - scheduling flexibility is good even though it cost jobs when guys exceed pick up limits. On the other hand basing flexibility is bad because it costs us jobs?
You seem willing to overlook one while taking a firm stand against the other which is what I don't quite understand.
Finally how does picking up extra flying help guys get other days off? I am not against trading just exceeding pick up limits.
Scoop
#122
Inertia mostly. I have adapted to our current system. These over max pickups are how common? I did it once when I swapped a 2 day for a 4 day but it gave me 2 days off I needed. I probably could have dropped and then hoped for something to come available but I put a swap in to be sure I didn’t lose pay.
Again, I don’t think over max pickups are not common enough to address. VBs on the other hand are new and are easily put down. The data on VBs will come regardless of my objections. My fear is it will morph over time into something nobody wants or intended.
Again, I don’t think over max pickups are not common enough to address. VBs on the other hand are new and are easily put down. The data on VBs will come regardless of my objections. My fear is it will morph over time into something nobody wants or intended.
#123
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Inertia mostly. I have adapted to our current system. These over max pickups are how common? I did it once when I swapped a 2 day for a 4 day but it gave me 2 days off I needed. I probably could have dropped and then hoped for something to come available but I put a swap in to be sure I didn’t lose pay.
Again, I don’t think over max pickups are not common enough to address. VBs on the other hand are new and are easily put down. The data on VBs will come regardless of my objections. My fear is it will morph over time into something nobody wants or intended.
Again, I don’t think over max pickups are not common enough to address. VBs on the other hand are new and are easily put down. The data on VBs will come regardless of my objections. My fear is it will morph over time into something nobody wants or intended.
I agree that there is plenty of reason to be skeptical of VBs and I also agree with your point regarding inertia but that does not mean that we shouldn't try to improve upon our PWA in all areas.
Its not like we are ever going back to days of the "Bow wave" and LOT bidding, but why have limits on pick-ups and then allow work-arounds? If we really care about productivity and improving advancement and more WB A jobs then lets look at all productivity aspects of the PWA equally and not make a stand on some while at the same time allowing others.
Just like we improved (but did not totally eliminate) trip parking we can tighten up on our caps.
Scoop
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 654
Shut it down.
It's something the company wanted. If they want it bad enough, they can come back and ask again during the next negotiation. But the grace period has elapsed, and I see almost no upside for us.
And, again, the company seemed to really want it.
Just shut it down.
It's something the company wanted. If they want it bad enough, they can come back and ask again during the next negotiation. But the grace period has elapsed, and I see almost no upside for us.
And, again, the company seemed to really want it.
Just shut it down.
#125
I'm all for people using the contract to their advantage, but I think a cap would be good for the whole group.
#126
I agree that there is plenty of reason to be skeptical of VBs and I also agree with your point regarding inertia but that does not mean that we shouldn't try to improve upon our PWA in all areas.
Its not like we are ever going back to days of the "Bow wave" and LOT bidding, but why have limits on pick-ups and then allow work-arounds? If we really care about productivity and improving advancement and more WB A jobs then lets look at all productivity aspects of the PWA equally and not make a stand on some while at the same time allowing others.
Just like we improved (but did not totally eliminate) trip parking we can tighten up on our caps.
Scoop
Its not like we are ever going back to days of the "Bow wave" and LOT bidding, but why have limits on pick-ups and then allow work-arounds? If we really care about productivity and improving advancement and more WB A jobs then lets look at all productivity aspects of the PWA equally and not make a stand on some while at the same time allowing others.
Just like we improved (but did not totally eliminate) trip parking we can tighten up on our caps.
Scoop
Right now we have the power to shut down a productivity grab and should do so. The other reforms you speak of are wins the company are not willing to give up without commensurate productivity savings. I see VBs as the low hanging fruit.
#127
You don't see a productivity gain with guys flying 90+ hours at straight pay? And yes, seeing some data would be good for both how VB affects us and how guys flying to FARs affect us.
You are kind of proving my point - scheduling flexibility is good even though it cost jobs when guys exceed pick up limits. On the other hand basing flexibility is bad because it costs us jobs?
You seem willing to overlook one while taking a firm stand against the other which is what I don't quite understand.
Finally how does picking up extra flying help guys get other days off? I am not against trading just exceeding pick up limits.
Scoop
You are kind of proving my point - scheduling flexibility is good even though it cost jobs when guys exceed pick up limits. On the other hand basing flexibility is bad because it costs us jobs?
You seem willing to overlook one while taking a firm stand against the other which is what I don't quite understand.
Finally how does picking up extra flying help guys get other days off? I am not against trading just exceeding pick up limits.
Scoop
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 105
Some good discussion points raised.
>>Right now we have the power to shut down a productivity grab and should do so.<<
This might be an opportune time to mention that there are 4 Local Council meetings in the next ten days or so. The newest version of the MEC will meet in early March. Hmmmm.
CCN
>>Right now we have the power to shut down a productivity grab and should do so.<<
This might be an opportune time to mention that there are 4 Local Council meetings in the next ten days or so. The newest version of the MEC will meet in early March. Hmmmm.
CCN
#129
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 56
Shut it down.
It's something the company wanted. If they want it bad enough, they can come back and ask again during the next negotiation. But the grace period has elapsed, and I see almost no upside for us.
And, again, the company seemed to really want it.
Just shut it down.
It's something the company wanted. If they want it bad enough, they can come back and ask again during the next negotiation. But the grace period has elapsed, and I see almost no upside for us.
And, again, the company seemed to really want it.
Just shut it down.
Our crew resources newsletter said that Bos A320 would be the most reliable test to run and it would NOT BE COST EFFECTIVE.
Some of the dreamers who think that Delta wants this so that you can drive to work 3 months out of the year and spend that much more time with your family need to wake up. They want this because they are thinking two contract cycles ahead of us. They will want the ocean crossing segment language removed. They will more than likely further attempt to degrade VB by removing the ocean crossing segment from a current DL base.
We have over a dozen fleet types. Marketing doesn’t know what planes are flying where 45 days out on the domestic side of the operation. I just bought a ticket to Orlando for next month. B757 just changed to A321. 38 days from departure.
They want virtual basing for wide bodies. Domestically, they can run all the non cost effective trials they want. It doesn’t work. Usair tried it. United tried it. Virgin America did it. Regionals have tried and failed. It doesn’t save the company money and for that reason it was shut down at all of those airlines.
They’ve had over a year to set up the IT for a VB and couldn’t get that done. The grace period is over. Kill it. If they want another 1 year test period with the same conditions they can get it from us in C2020, at a cost of course. Maybe they will be ready for their test period at that time.
Peel back the layers of virtual basing and I think when you find the core (the plan 4-8-12 years from now) you will see a vastly different concept than what we “think they will do.”
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,126
As I understand it the Swap board and also Swap with friends have no pick-up limit. Open time has a max pick-up limit. Some Pilots use the swap board and Swap with friends to bypass the Max pick-up.
As long as its in the PWA it is perfectly fine with me. My question is why don't we try to remove them and set hard caps on all pick-ups? Both issues, VB and no pick-up limits, seem very similar in that they benefit those who choose to participate with more pay and flexibility at the expense of the Pilot group at large.
Lots of angst with the VB and yet no one seems to care about pick-ups. Reminds me when all the guys were going ballistic about reserves being able to fly to ALV+15 while the company sneaked in 30 day July and August months which is many many times more detrimental to the Pilot group.
Scoop
As long as its in the PWA it is perfectly fine with me. My question is why don't we try to remove them and set hard caps on all pick-ups? Both issues, VB and no pick-up limits, seem very similar in that they benefit those who choose to participate with more pay and flexibility at the expense of the Pilot group at large.
Lots of angst with the VB and yet no one seems to care about pick-ups. Reminds me when all the guys were going ballistic about reserves being able to fly to ALV+15 while the company sneaked in 30 day July and August months which is many many times more detrimental to the Pilot group.
Scoop
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