So just a couple of thoughts on senioirty based pay.

It is much less expensive to if you are mostly wide body fleet compared to a mostly narrow body fleet. In other words, if you have 100 777s and 10 717s, how much does it cost to bring those 717 pilots up compared to having 100 717s and only 10 777s?

If you do the math under the current value of our contract, the seniority based banded rate would be just over the 767 rate. No way that is acceptable right? The next statement will be “I meant to move everyone to the 777 rate.” With our current fleet mix, to move everyone to 777 rate would require about a 30% increase in the cost of contract (over a billion dollars) and that is without the pilots on the top pay scales getting any benefit. That would also be problematic for the pilots that have put in their 30 years and then they get zero benefit out of a new PWA.

As far as staffing goes, there is ZERO doubt after the initial shakeout of pilots switching to planes that give them the best QOL, that SBP would require less pilots. Now that is “OK” as long as we offset it with more vacation etc? Jerry even says that is ok? That is hypocritical as crap from the “no concession/trade” crowd considering that they screamed about TA2, yet it did exactly the same thing... any trades were offset with things like increasd vacation.

One other consideration based on OUR fleet mix, there is also the possibility that it drives the casm up so much on the smaller equipment that it not competitive on the routes it operates. This “could” lead to an overall smaller fleet.

Before someone calls me “Debbie Downer” or says that I am unwilling to try something new..... I am not arguing against SBP or pay banding, but although it may sounds good at first glance “yay, we are all getting a 40 percent raise on the 717” there are a lot of things to think about and consider before making that the rallying cry.

RR brings up some good points regarding SBP, especially the long term potential downside if the 717 pays like a 777. A three rate pay structure could work with the fleet at Delta. IF the conventional wisdom regarding training efficiencies is true, the proper offset would be increased vacation. This provides training relief for the company, yet protects pilot jobs and increases QOL. Contractual items that help the company don't have to be bad for the pilots. The net effect over a pilot's career would be less time on VA Ave for training and more time on vacation. The downside is you may not have as many airplane types on your retirement lithograph. Some may think of this as simply rearranging the deck chairs, but if it provides a better view why not?

The company would never agree to everybody just getting 777 rate, so this is just mental masturbation. That said, contracts are about the tyranny of the many and we don't have a lot of people at the top rate. I guarantee that if the company's offer for C19 was everybody gets 777 rates and no other changes it would pass by the biggest landslide in contract history.

Nope.

filler

United has 1,183 Captains at the highest pay rate and 4,879 Captains total. How many does Delta have in those two categories?

Lots of good info in this thread but it does not really drive me to reach any conclusions:


Longevity Pay vs Pay Banding vs our Current pay - Too many variables and unknowns to know how this would affect us. Interesting theories put forth, but without details its all speculation. Even with details we have no idea how guys would bid and how quickly guys would bid.



The Seniority system: Yes we run on a seniority system. To all those lamenting the inequities and evils of a seniority system wait until you have put in at least 20 years working your way up through the system and then change it to your detriment to benefit those that follow you. You will feel feel very good about yourself.


Paying your dues: We have all payed dues but guess what? Dues paid anywhere other than Delta Air Lines are irrelevant when discussing Delta Air Lines. Joe Blow did great things in the military - good for him, lets start him out as a new hire. John Q Public did great things at XYZ connection carrier, great he starts at DAL as a new hire.


Opinions of new Guys: Every Delta Pilots has opinions and all deserve to be heard from a new hire on day 1 to the 64 year old international Pilot who can't figure out where he left his hat. Opinions are like ideas - if its good its good, where and who it originated from is inconsequential. Plenty of new hires have some great ideas about how to improve this place and we should hear them out.


Scoop

I feel like this has broken down into the wrong argument.

I don’t contend that I’m as good as someone way more senior to me. I do know, and FOQA data shows that we ALL make mistakes.

My argument is this. Shouldn’t we drive to have as many of our pilots make as much as possible? If so why should we not get years 1-5 pay closer to year 12 pay? I mean if we are in it together and we should all reap the rewards. Is it an unwillingness to share the pie more evenly?

I don’t fault seniority should grant you a better schedule or first crack at premium time or preference on plane/seat. But does the pay need to be that different? Again not saying captains shouldn’t make more either, they should, but is a year 5 captain worth 20-30% less than a 12 year captain?

Year 1 through 5 pay are the most improved pay rates at Delta since I was hired by a huge margin.

Emotionally, I guess I should apologize for being senior and volunteer to take a cut so 5 yr can have a 12 yr rate and 100 seat can pay as much as 300+ seat. Having recently reviewed my B scale, bankruptcy ravaged, pathetic targeted DC, pension terminated career... uh, no. There is one pot of money in every contract. You won't always be junior. Figure it out. OFG

Who suggested this?