23K/Recovery Questions Thread
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Hoping for any position
Posts: 2,529
Something I thought about over lunch: If a trip change occurred due to an equipment substitution as it did in my case, the legs showed up as a new trip in the other equipment's open time, but did nothing in the original equipment open time.
I'm guessing that, with CS putting out so many fires left and right, since my trip isn't flagging any legalities or mis-connects, it's just not on their radar. (I'm trying to logic why my trips haven't been NOOP'd yet. I know, I know, logic isn't allowed in the current discussion.)
On the subject of GS over a 23K (no obligation) scenario: do you think that the automated system can't see you as available since you have something on your schedule? I don't know how the automated system 'sees' the 23K trip.
I'm guessing that, with CS putting out so many fires left and right, since my trip isn't flagging any legalities or mis-connects, it's just not on their radar. (I'm trying to logic why my trips haven't been NOOP'd yet. I know, I know, logic isn't allowed in the current discussion.)
On the subject of GS over a 23K (no obligation) scenario: do you think that the automated system can't see you as available since you have something on your schedule? I don't know how the automated system 'sees' the 23K trip.
#192
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: 3+ hour sit in the ATL
Posts: 1,982
I had to do the same, commute night before. I don’t mind doing my job but this is getting out of hand. I don’t see how the schedulers haven’t caught up yet. Before they NOOPd my rotation, they built an out and back double deadhead right back to my original layover location. Deadhead to SLC the deadhead back to MSP, which is where I was starting day 2. I knew then I made a mistake commuting in.
About 6-9 minutes ago my rotation just showed up as NOOP. So I guess CS is kinda of in a melt down right now?? Although I didn't end up having to call and inquire, I would recommend that in addition to any calls maybe send the DALPA scheduling folks screen shots of what your are seeing. My guess is this is pretty rampant right now.
#193
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,891
Well before I decided to call CS, I emailed the DALPA scheduling folks. Sent them screen shot of the Fly Delta flight info that had changed as well as my original rotation.
About 6-9 minutes ago my rotation just showed up as NOOP. So I guess CS is kinda of in a melt down right now?? Although I didn't end up having to call and inquire, I would recommend that in addition to any calls maybe send the DALPA scheduling folks screen shots of what your are seeing. My guess is this is pretty rampant right now.
About 6-9 minutes ago my rotation just showed up as NOOP. So I guess CS is kinda of in a melt down right now?? Although I didn't end up having to call and inquire, I would recommend that in addition to any calls maybe send the DALPA scheduling folks screen shots of what your are seeing. My guess is this is pretty rampant right now.
#195
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 55
Somewhere on here someone said day trips that get NOOPed cant 23K because of the new 12 hour rule. How does the 12 hour rule work? I thought it was from any point. In other words, lets say you have a 1400 sign in for day trip. I thought they could call you at 0200 and give you something for recovery, but is that not the case? The 12 hour starts from the original report?
Different scenario, lets say they 23k your 2/3/4 day trip that signed in at 1800, they do this the day before or two days before. You are under 23.K.1.b ...they have to "assign" you something within 6 hours after the original report (assignment vs report is something different, as far as I can tell). So if the original sign in was at 1800, they have until midnight to make an assignment. The report for that assignment can start no later than 0600 the next day (with the new 12 hour rule)?
So the report can come on any day of the trip? In other words, they can give you something on the third day of the trip, starting at any time (as long as it gets back no later than 4 hours after your original block in)?
Different scenario, lets say they 23k your 2/3/4 day trip that signed in at 1800, they do this the day before or two days before. You are under 23.K.1.b ...they have to "assign" you something within 6 hours after the original report (assignment vs report is something different, as far as I can tell). So if the original sign in was at 1800, they have until midnight to make an assignment. The report for that assignment can start no later than 0600 the next day (with the new 12 hour rule)?
So the report can come on any day of the trip? In other words, they can give you something on the third day of the trip, starting at any time (as long as it gets back no later than 4 hours after your original block in)?
#196
Scenario: 1-day trip original show 8am release 7pm NOOP shows on your schedule and you get notified at 6pm day prior. On that call they can assign you something that shows no earlier than 8am and releases no later than 11pm (original + 4hrs)
-or-
You are obligated to 23K recovery assignment from 8am to 2pm -BUT- with the new rules, they must give you 12 hours to report for the 23K assignment and it would still have to release no later than 11pm. There's no way they can call you at 8am, give you 12 hours notice and get you back within your recovery window. Thus, you can't be used unless they tag you at the time of the NOOP notification. The one scenario I haven't found an answer to is, if they NOOP your rotation a week out, can they TRY to notify you of a 23K recovery trip anytime up to your original show time, because the way I read it is that, as a line-holder there's no requirement to be contactable on off days.
Under the old rules you'd be obligated to 23K recovery assignment (basically be on short-call RES) from 8:am to 2pm. Anything they assigned you would have to release no later than 11pm.
-or-
You are obligated to 23K recovery assignment from 8am to 2pm -BUT- with the new rules, they must give you 12 hours to report for the 23K assignment and it would still have to release no later than 11pm. There's no way they can call you at 8am, give you 12 hours notice and get you back within your recovery window. Thus, you can't be used unless they tag you at the time of the NOOP notification. The one scenario I haven't found an answer to is, if they NOOP your rotation a week out, can they TRY to notify you of a 23K recovery trip anytime up to your original show time, because the way I read it is that, as a line-holder there's no requirement to be contactable on off days.
Under the old rules you'd be obligated to 23K recovery assignment (basically be on short-call RES) from 8:am to 2pm. Anything they assigned you would have to release no later than 11pm.
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: Looking left
Posts: 3,418
Somewhere on here someone said day trips that get NOOPed cant 23K because of the new 12 hour rule. How does the 12 hour rule work? I thought it was from any point. In other words, lets say you have a 1400 sign in for day trip. I thought they could call you at 0200 and give you something for recovery, but is that not the case? The 12 hour starts from the original report?
Different scenario, lets say they 23k your 2/3/4 day trip that signed in at 1800, they do this the day before or two days before. You are under 23.K.1.b ...they have to "assign" you something within 6 hours after the original report (assignment vs report is something different, as far as I can tell). So if the original sign in was at 1800, they have until midnight to make an assignment. The report for that assignment can start no later than 0600 the next day (with the new 12 hour rule)?
So the report can come on any day of the trip? In other words, they can give you something on the third day of the trip, starting at any time (as long as it gets back no later than 4 hours after your original block in)?
Different scenario, lets say they 23k your 2/3/4 day trip that signed in at 1800, they do this the day before or two days before. You are under 23.K.1.b ...they have to "assign" you something within 6 hours after the original report (assignment vs report is something different, as far as I can tell). So if the original sign in was at 1800, they have until midnight to make an assignment. The report for that assignment can start no later than 0600 the next day (with the new 12 hour rule)?
So the report can come on any day of the trip? In other words, they can give you something on the third day of the trip, starting at any time (as long as it gets back no later than 4 hours after your original block in)?
If they don't acknowledge, they are required to report as scheduled, they will start a RAP. Must remain available for immediate assignment within 6 hour recovery window. The COVID-19 12-hour call out DOES NOT apply in this scenario.
Yes, the 23K recovery rotation needs to fit inside the footprint of the original rotation
#198
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 49
The 12 hour call out only applies if the pilot acknowledges the NOOP. Any rotation awarded to the pilot inside the 6 hour recovery window will have a minimum of 12 hours until report.
If they don't acknowledge, they are required to report as scheduled, they will start a RAP. Must remain available for immediate assignment within 6 hour recovery window. The COVID-19 12-hour call out DOES NOT apply in this scenario.
Yes, the 23K recovery rotation needs to fit inside the footprint of the original rotation
If they don't acknowledge, they are required to report as scheduled, they will start a RAP. Must remain available for immediate assignment within 6 hour recovery window. The COVID-19 12-hour call out DOES NOT apply in this scenario.
Yes, the 23K recovery rotation needs to fit inside the footprint of the original rotation
#199
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: Looking left
Posts: 3,418
To tag on... 5 day trip starting sat with all but 1 random leg cancelled. I'm assuming as it gets closer they will NOOP the trip. Normally I would acknowledge the automated call and hope for illegal double 23m recovery. In this case they have a bunch of trips that I would be legal to do and would rather not. If it noops can I not acknowledge and show at the original time and be on a 6 hr call out? Hoping that the trips are already assigned the day before which I believe they will be?
It's not a 6 hour call out, you start your 6 hour window where they can assign you recovery flying. Your RAP start at original report time, but you must remain available for immediate assignment, think airport standby.
#200
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 49
Yes....don't ACK and then you are required to report at original report time.
It's not a 6 hour call out, you start your 6 hour window where they can assign you recovery flying. Your RAP start at original report time, but you must remain available for immediate assignment, think airport standby.
It's not a 6 hour call out, you start your 6 hour window where they can assign you recovery flying. Your RAP start at original report time, but you must remain available for immediate assignment, think airport standby.
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