marcal

So I've been thinking about the potential ALV/Furloughs/survival of the airline like everyone. I'm a bubble candidate to lose my job if this all goes south. I just want to get a discussion on if we are looking at potential ALV reductions vs furloughs the right way. I see these at two separate issues. I don't believe they are related.

1.) The survival of the airline is predicated on cash flow. With no revenue, stretching every dollar prolongs the airline surviving.

2.) The airline is going to be smaller and there will(most likely) be furloughs on the other side and we don't know how long that will take.

I absolutely do not believe we should be taking any concessions to prevent any furlough because they are unrelated. If we are smaller, we're losing guys and gals.

I am however, open to the union discussing methods to stretch our cash flow through the significant downturn, IF IT IS STRUCTURED AS A LOAN THAT PAYS US INTEREST.

When Delta taps a line of credit, they pay interest. If we were to offer 20 hour ALV reductions, I would want 5-10% interest on that in some way/shape/form. I don't think that would be unreasonable. I am in no way shape or form advocating for a permanent amendment of our PWA. Any change would have to be temporary as an LOA.

Just as an example of what I'm thinking:
Each pilot reduces ALV by 20 hrs/month for a period of one year until things stabilize(240hrs). If it is say paid back over a 5 year period with the company paying us 5% interest, they would have five years after an agreed upon date or financial hurdle to pay us back roughy 5-10 extra hours every month for those five years(this is just a rough guess on what it would cost them to pay back this "loan" to them. If this is structured as a loan(I don't know if that can be done), it would be paid back at a higher priority in a BK.

Thoughts?

Myfingershurt

Interest is only paid on investments. Management will never see pilots as an investment. But maybe ALPA can negotiate something that would make lower ALVs worthwhile for the pilots. But I’m not holding my breath. Instead I’m maxing our every month until i get furloughed. Gonna make it hurt when they furlough me and don’t have my super productivity. Haha

Buck Rogers

So, what happens for the 2500 pilots that must retire in the next 3-4 years? What, if any, is the plan for them to be made whole?

additionally, most of those guys lived thru a bankruptcy and more importantly, the 10 years of substandard contracts...they did not get much "sympathy" from the soon to be furloughed for their "plight" at Delta. At least not from the vocal minority on these forums.

Before this gets off the rails, nobody owes me anything for past hardships at Delta....likewise I don't owe anybody anything for possible future hardships.....or turn the phrase 180 degrees and same same.

Bucking Bar

If memory serves the last buy out was a max of $150k in 2012/3 if the pilot had 5;years left.

The only real incentive is avoiding the school house. Of course there may be more money by just saying adios on the day of the ESV.

*DEPENDING ON THE DATA* we should consider*

- the notion of an ALV / TLV adjustment to minimize displacements. My analysis of the park plan suggests the waterfall starts on the 777, builds us momentum on the 330, becomes a flipping avalanche on the 7ER and the narrow body islands are shrinking too.

So, in exchange for a minimization of displacements & furloughs we must maintain pay rates, category and status.

- no overtime (except for maybe GS on reserve which effectively decreases effective pilot utilization due to PB+PR, or maybe no overtime period for consistency)

​​​​​​- move the reinstatement window to the limit of the short course.

The long range concern is that
​​WE MUST KEEP AN EYE ON THE POTENTIAL FOR AN ARBITRATED SLI/MERGER! McKatskill Bond was written as a result of APA's bad faith ... ironically they would be the first beneficiaries of the Act. We would not want to degrade our pay rates, category or status.

If the airlines re emerge at 50% they are going to be looking for ways to consolidate and build customer demand sufficient to feed multiple connecting banks to facilitate their hub and spoke network model.

Just one guy's opinion.

​

rickair7777

Any such (unsecured) loan would be vapor in BK.

Giving such a "loan" would not likely prevent BK either way.

That's what I learned from industry history.

Denny Crane

On the face them, all ideas like the ones posed by the Op have merit............until you run them thru the filter of history, in this case a past BK. Then, to me, they don’t seem like that smart an idea.

As has been stated many times before (by me ), we do not have a cost problem but do have a revenue problem.

Denny

sailingfun

Why would the company not just borrow money at a lower rate?

Denny Crane

Any targeted reduction of TLV/ALV will be short lived. The Company doesn’t want to carry a lot of low productivity pilots when they can less pilots with a higher productivity.

Denny

FL370esq

Make it secured then. ALPA can issue an EETC with the "Thank You" A321 and a few others as security interest. 😁

p3flteng

my opinion on this has changed, from first initially thinking an ALV reduction/ loan would be a good idea, then being had or lied to during the Sils/April rebid fiasco, bringing me to pay current opinion that any company help, should come AFTER sils at 55 hours and a early retirement package.

After that, maybe a ALV loan....if it was put in the full service bank on icrew, to be paid out say maybe 24 moths later, or upon retirement/ furlough...maybe even an installment bank pay out plan of an agreed period of equal to the months the reduced ALV was in effect. A loan interest rate of 5% put into the bank with each deposit...many variables...but again something that’s in our name, and not a promise to be erased by bankruptcy. And I know..the company administers the fsb.
The question is do you think they would steal that money, or is it even touchable in bankruptcy if it’s in the fsb under our name?

Again, only after Sils and Early Retirements!