You could be correct. I don’t have access to your sec 23.a language right now. I see copy mentioned “significant” change was in some policy manual? I was on an Alpa grievance committee for years and worked with one of your attorneys right before he came over to b6.

SECTION 3: RATIFICATION
Proposed collective bargaining agreements that result from negotiations undertaken pursuant to Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act and the duration clause of the current collective bargaining agreement or if no such collective bargaining agreement exists, that resolve all Section 6 issues, and that have been approved by the MEC, shall be subject to member ratification. In addition, the MEC will seek membership ratification of other proposed agreements or Letters of Agreement which modify contractual pay or that significantly modify work rules.

modify contractual pay. Not just pay rates. And it doesn’t have to be significant. Any pay to contractual pay.

ok. Like others have mentioned. Best to just wait for the actual language to see what it says. Or call your reps. You would need to file a sec 23 dispute. But like I said I don’t have your section 23 contract language to even know if it’s been violated once your Loa is available. I can see multiple ways in just the first paragraph of your sec 23.a that copy posted to mitigate furloughs WITHOUT it being concessionary. Probably best to not debate it on a delta thread. Good luck.

Poor Delta guys. I feel for ya. If bashing JB makes you feel better, then have it. Really couldn't care less.

I don't think I'll ever understand UNA pilots pleading to be furloughed instead of the rest of us taking ALV cuts. And I don't understand the same pilots that were wailing about how high ALVs were going to be this summer because of bEiNg gUmMeD now saying that ALV reductions are a concession because, like, that same Delta wants to have 17,000 pilots on the seniority list when this is over? Or something?

The only rationale that makes sense is that pilots are making a false equivalence between [pay rates + work rules ca. 2003] and [ALVs ca. 2020]. Since the former were taken on the road to bankruptcy and then taken again after, then necessarily since DL is asking for the latter now, they MUST also be planning to take more later, possibly in bankruptcy again. But this is not how history works!

No false equivalency. We just are looking 5-15 years down the road not 2 feet in front of our face. You have a history of giving concessions. We don't want it. Simple.

We know you are going to green slip when we are on the street. Fine. It's already happening with the first round of folks on UNA. We don't want you to pork away what we have right now in the PWA. It's really that simple.

3 other airlines managed to work out cost saving methods without giving or asking for concessions. Why are we even talking about it? Savvy?

I'll let UNA pilots weigh in on why they'd rather not see the contract gutted just to save them, but as for ALV's being a concession either way...

If the company wants something from us, it's a concession. Otherwise they would just give it to us as a gift. When times are good, they want max productivity and thus want high ALV's (fewer pilots to keep current/pay benefits/etc). In times like now, they have too many of us contractually, and want to pay us way less than contractually mandated, thus wanting a lower ALV. Think of it as we have something of value that they want. It just depends on the economy for which 'side' of ALV management wants, but in either case it's a concession for us to give our thing of value up.

Perhaps JB pilots should bargain away their scope and joint venture protections to bring them more in line with DL.

For quite a few of is this isn't our first airline. We have seen this play before at other companies. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Also yes the ALV was absurdly high last summer. In short they want us to help them out when they dont hire enough people and then also want us to help them lower the costs. I'm done helping them.

Good post.

If working three days a week instead of four means everyone keeps their job, I'm all for it. ALV reductions are a GIVE from the company. They get less productive pilots which means they need more pilots.