Herkflyr

I'm happy about the upcoming change. The real problem is that we had (have?) some stubborn, impatient captains, especially when it comes to slower starting engines like the 757 or 717. I cannot tell you how many times on my many years on the 757 when the captain would ask for both engines to be started, and I would just have turned the start switch on #2 when I would hear "flaps 5, call for taxi." That is just wrong. On the 757 it is annoying. Due to the air driven hydraulics on the 767, when that happened you would get a hung start--not good! (the air that WAS starting the engine is then diverted for the next 30 seconds to drop the flaps). I refused to do that on a 767. Got into a couple of arguments. Not good either.

What Delta really needs to drill into their captains' heads is, "you don't say the words 'Salute received, Flaps xx, call for taxi' until you have first heard the words "starting engines check complete" (and assuming that you have received the salute of course). If that means that it takes 3-4 minutes on a 717, first flight of the day--then you just need to hum a tune, admire the view, etc. Impatiently calling for flaps and taxi amidst a starting engines sequence is not necessary, overlaps checklists and procedures, and annoys your FOs.

notEnuf

The captain is the only one moving the airplane, therfore...

Awaiting incoming.

buckleyboy

I am in the camp agreeing with Ooff here. Even the best patient captains get distracted with a call from the back, weird ramp instructions, new FOs, etc. This is a good change.

boog123

Funny, in 25 years of flying, I’ve never had a Captain put pressure on me to call for taxi when starting the engines. If I had, the answer was “when I’m done starting the engines and doing things the way XYZ airline tells me to do it”.( if I would have said anything when focusing on the task at hand) Sounds like you need to work on some
assertiveness and CRM.

Bluto

Sounds pretty assertive to me?

cornbeef007

I can’t think of any procedure at “Delta” that is as bad as this. Haven’t seen the new procedure but unless it’s as you stated above, we are going to keep having issues.

I worked at two previous companies and had 0 TOFU instances. We operated exactly as you stated and it worked fine. No movement before after-start check list and “FLAPS” were on it. This really isn’t hard.

Delta has decided that latency is more important than these issues. Simple as that but surprisingly some of the most recent catastrophic accidents at both South and North involved takeoff with flaps up. Wouldn’t you think they would transition to an industry standard procedure that actually works. I’m honestly not sure why the feds don’t intervene but I’d imagine the new procedure is to appease them.

notEnuf

We may eliminate TOFU, but have we solved the problem if the wrong flap setting is set for T/O? Just take the half second it takes to get it right. The change is fine but adds to the tasks while in motion should it not be a default setting WDR. The WDR verification should be done stationary anyway. What takes priority, monitoring the push or WDR verification? They both should have their own space and time given our recent history.

MrMustache

As you said our TOFU issues are cultural due to latency, not procedural. I bet we still have issues until people get into the correct mindset.

D B Cooper

This is why we can't have nice things.

Jodaaddy

Did I miss a memo? When did the trigger for flap movement change?