Moved - Flap setting trigger thread
01-20-2021, 11:33 AM
#31
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by TallWeeds
At my regional we could taxi with the flaps up if we were getting deiced. Flaps up deice was normal. Then set the flaps prior to takeoff. At the current leave of absence job, we set the flaps after we start taxiing. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever tried to takeoff with the flaps up at either company. I do not understand all the angst with TOFU around here.
Its all about the numbers. When you do millions of takeoffs, even a one in a million chance comes up. How long does it take your current LOA gig to cycle through a million takeoffs compared to DAL?
Scoop
01-20-2021, 11:41 AM
#32
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Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,305
Originally Posted by m3113n1a1
It's really strange. And the practice of just arbitrarily setting flaps 1 before you taxi if you haven't received the WDR yet just to avoid a FOQA event is dangerous. If you subsequently get the WDR and it's a flaps 10 take off, but you forget to adjust the flaps, you're not going to get a takeoff config warning (on 737) during take off and could ultimately takeoff with the wrong flap setting all because we're scared to taxi with the flaps up.
01-20-2021, 11:47 AM
#33
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by m3113n1a1
It's really strange. And the practice of just arbitrarily setting flaps 1 before you taxi if you haven't received the WDR yet just to avoid a FOQA event is dangerous. If you subsequently get the WDR and it's a flaps 10 take off, but you forget to adjust the flaps, you're not going to get a takeoff config warning (on 737) during take off and could ultimately takeoff with the wrong flap setting all because we're scared to taxi with the flaps up.
To me, starting to taxi with flaps not set is not really a big deal.....attempting to TO with flaps inappropriately set is. I think we should just weld the gear down, and brace the flaps in a nominal position and never move them. Problem solved....what’s a little decreased range and increased fuel burn when it comes to safety?
01-20-2021, 03:37 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
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Posts: 5,815
Originally Posted by FangsF15
Moderators, any chance of moving some of these posts to TOFU thread?
01-21-2021, 06:42 AM
#36
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Position: 3+ hour sit in the ATL
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
Really good point. But, but, but....*they looked at everything” before this change it is kinda like the way we used to do it long ago on the South side. The “trigger” was movement for taxi and the FO automatically dropped the flaps. But, this new way will look good on paper for FOQWA, right up until we have a mishap due to the reason you brought up.
To me, starting to taxi with flaps not set is not really a big deal.....attempting to TO with flaps inappropriately set is. I think we should just weld the gear down, and brace the flaps in a nominal position and never move them. Problem solved....what’s a little decreased range and increased fuel burn when it comes to safety?
To me, starting to taxi with flaps not set is not really a big deal.....attempting to TO with flaps inappropriately set is. I think we should just weld the gear down, and brace the flaps in a nominal position and never move them. Problem solved....what’s a little decreased range and increased fuel burn when it comes to safety?
FO sets flaps as part of after start flow. That's one. Skipper still calls "Salute received, flaps X" that is another check. Taxi check is another and Before Takeoff is the final. So we now have 4 places to ensure a takeoff with flaps not set to proper WDR setting.
IMHO it is a natural for the FO to set the flaps as part of the after start flow. It is, for once, a change that makes sense.
01-21-2021, 07:03 AM
#38
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by Drum
Just spent a week flying doing the "new" procedure. It is NBD. We now are setting/checking the flaps 4 times.
FO sets flaps as part of after start flow. That's one. Skipper still calls "Salute received, flaps X" that is another check. Taxi check is another and Before Takeoff is the final. So we now have 4 places to ensure a takeoff with flaps not set to proper WDR setting.
IMHO it is a natural for the FO to set the flaps as part of the after start flow. It is, for once, a change that makes sense.
FO sets flaps as part of after start flow. That's one. Skipper still calls "Salute received, flaps X" that is another check. Taxi check is another and Before Takeoff is the final. So we now have 4 places to ensure a takeoff with flaps not set to proper WDR setting.
IMHO it is a natural for the FO to set the flaps as part of the after start flow. It is, for once, a change that makes sense.
I totally agree...NBFB. Just "interesting" that after the dog chasing it's tail, we are back to where we were 30+ years ago on this procedure.
(I may be mistaken, but part of the drama was a culture thing after the N/S merge. In the N side the FO never did anything without being told, on the S side it was like "yes, just do it, "IT" has to be done anyway.(after landing check just was part of the flow after clearing the runway instead of FO looking at me with his hand on the flap handle and big doe eyes looking at me like "you want me to do the after landing flow/checklist?) No right/wrong, I see both sides....just find it humorous the 30 years of jousting at windmills....but 4th floor types are kinda like instructors....they have to "teach/show" something...not a dig...just the way it is.
And so here we are....again
01-21-2021, 07:22 AM
#39
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Joined APC: Mar 2015
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Posts: 10,034
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
I totally agree...NBFB. Just "interesting" that after the dog chasing it's tail, we are back to where we were 30+ years ago on this procedure.
(I may be mistaken, but part of the drama was a culture thing after the N/S merge. In the N side the FO never did anything without being told, on the S side it was like "yes, just do it, "IT" has to be done anyway.(after landing check just was part of the flow after clearing the runway instead of FO looking at me with his hand on the flap handle and big doe eyes looking at me like "you want me to do the after landing flow/checklist?) No right/wrong, I see both sides....just find it humorous the 30 years of jousting at windmills....but 4th floor types are kinda like instructors....they have to "teach/show" something...not a dig...just the way it is.
And so here we are....again
(I may be mistaken, but part of the drama was a culture thing after the N/S merge. In the N side the FO never did anything without being told, on the S side it was like "yes, just do it, "IT" has to be done anyway.(after landing check just was part of the flow after clearing the runway instead of FO looking at me with his hand on the flap handle and big doe eyes looking at me like "you want me to do the after landing flow/checklist?) No right/wrong, I see both sides....just find it humorous the 30 years of jousting at windmills....but 4th floor types are kinda like instructors....they have to "teach/show" something...not a dig...just the way it is.
And so here we are....again
Just do the job deliberately. No matter how fast you taxi, it will never be fast enough.
01-21-2021, 07:36 AM
#40
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Dreamniner
Posts: 352
Originally Posted by LumberJack
Can't remember the source but I remember the justification was something like Flaps 1 gets you most of the performance of any flap setting.
It might be sluggish getting into the air but having the leading edge devices out should be enough to keep you from stalling. Should allow for a safe takeoff unless you have the exceptionally bad luck of losing an engine on the takeoff you happened to incorrectly set the flaps. Still, I wouldn't suggest anyone press to test.
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