Good for you.

I would prefer that union work didn’t devolve into an insider’s racket for seagulls. The people who negotiate our next contract should have to fly the line under our current one. No one should gain or lose anything from doing ALPA work.

The vast majority of pilots I know who have done union work rotated back to the line and stayed there. The number of lifers I have known I can count on one hand.

Serious question… have you gained or lost anything doing union work?

You are overlooking the elephant in the room. The company had no intention of negotiating in good faith. The only chance of an "on time" contract was one that devalued the profession. Pretending that $1 billion was available from the company in 2019 is dishonest history.

I think it would have been done and inline with the 2012 and 2016 contracts when adjusted for number of pilots. I guess we can argue all day about what came first but just our conceptual opener in April of 2019 probably set the tone for what followed.

I voted to strike, second time in my career here. But, I agree with sailing on this issue.

Why would 2B available now and not 1B in 2019? Honest question. Just cause we had a strike vote?

Me thinks we could have easily had 1B and on time in late 2019. Like sailing said that 28M was for trivial items and kinda spun the wrong way.

• Section 7 (Vacation) – We are disappointed ALPA was unwilling to close this section despite our offer of significant gains in every major area of vacation, including higher pay per vacation day than both American and United.
  
• Section 8 (Deadhead) – Very little progress was made, but ALPA’s claim that our offers on deadhead lag even Endeavor strains credulity.
  

As we work through the remaining – and in some cases most complex and costly – sections of the contract, we believe both parties should remain focused on making progress and finding areas of compromise. The facts matter, and pilots deserve accurate information from their elected representatives. We will continue to set the record straight.​​​​​​​

These statements are maddening to the run of the mill line pilot. I understand there is a gag order on negotiations, but it drives me crazy to read these churched up, half truth summaries. I also understand this stuff is posted to the company propaganda page and its intended purpose, but an open kimono day on where we really are at the table would be a refreshing look at what the bs meter is reading and hold both sides accountable. I'm betting one side would have a little more to lose than the other in this hypothetical info sharing world.

-Interesting there is no mention of the word "credit" in the vacation section summary.
-DH offer (to me at least) is a professional courtesy item. Take care of your people and all... It speaks volumes that this is such a contested section.

I know the question was not directed to me, but as someone who did ALPA work for years, I would say it was net loss. I dedicated a lot of time doing things I thought was important for us all, but in the end was a major waste of time. In the end, I wished I hadn’t ever volunteered.

The biggest benefit of the whole experience was that a learned a great deal regarding how the union works and about the nature of pilots. In the former, my pre-conceived notions were 180 degrees from reality. The union is a bottom up organization where power resides at the MEC level. ALPA is more a franchise than a union. In the latter, my eyes were equally opened. I somehow thought pilots were different than the general population and more able to seek access, analyze, and then pragmatically act on information. I was quite wrong there. We pick leaders who best tell us what we want to hear just like everyone else. Our ability or willingness to do exponential math is also as equally flawed.

We are slaves to RLA. We refuse to adapt strategies that have failed, decade after decade, to yield results that beat inflation over the long term. We collectively live in a state of cognitive dissonance and have a highly impaired vision of economic reality and deep ignorance of the past. I don’t expect that to go over well on this board. I will simply say that the results we achieve will speak for themselves.

Sailing has touched on the solution. Modest on time results greatly outperform over the long haul. The key being on time. Modest results after 3-4 years past the amendable date is a disaster and isn’t a viable option other than to stem a bleed out. We are backed into a corner now. Both US Airways and American have had a tragic history when in a similar situation. American never had a Contract 2000. US Airways went 10 years without a raise. It got so bad there that our FOs made more than their captains. All we need now to make that our reality is for a recession to land on us, or God forbid Global Financial Crisis 2.

I think we can still salvage this situation, but it will depend on a lot of lifting by other players, namely the NMB, American, and United. We are controlling our own destiny only as far as we can continue along a single path that remains to us. Singles, doubles, and triples can’t win the game. It’s home run or lose big time at this point.

I agree with Sailing. The mistake was attempting to negotiate in 2019 with an impossible demand. Clearly neither side seriously attempted to have an agreement by the amendable date. We wasted time and waited for something bad to happen. This time it did.

I’m not a company man. I voted YES. I’m right there with you all. We have only one path to travel and I’m as committed to it as anyone here. Not by choice or because I think it was a good idea. It’s simply the only option that remains.

Yet we were never allowed a peek at the company opener. That would have set the tone. They, as always, intend to slow walk negotiations unless they get what they want ie. productivity and profit sharing gives. You keep going back to the ALPA conceptual opener without questioning the company opener. Which was the real brick on the ledger. Record profits and record pilot demand equals the only opportunity for restorative gains. What you would have us do, if even available, would have been to squander the best ever environment for a pittance.

said differently: “we’re disappointed that ALPA is sticking to its guns, and doing what you have asked them to do. We will, however, try to continue to spin it so that ALPA is to blame for the slow progress…”

did this come from the same folks who told us a month ago that our rotations are totally improved because the average layover length is up 0.1 hours and legs per duty day are down 0.01? So they are clearly better, right?

​​​​​​​sorry, not buying the company spin

Serious question, only because I am curious. Are these guys as stupid as they seem? Do they just think we are stupid? Is it both? Is this messaging truly just for the non-pilots at Delta? Are they intelligent, but willing to be so intellectually dishonest with us and with themselves?

I am embarrassed for this management team. It’s awkward and even a little depressing.

They must believe their own rhetoric, it's a job requirement.

Directly from Section 8D of Endeavor’s contract:

“The Company will book the Pilot business travel in Business Class or First Class on flights with a marketing time greater than three and one-half (3.5) hours, subject to pass policy and seat availability.”

Seems kinda credulity.

Sounds kind of loose and wiggly, to be exploited later.

IMO these updates reek of desperation. The tide has turned in our favor. Combine the strike vote with other airlines clearly making credible, tangible, clear as day gains, and the company has to be scrambling trying to figure out how little they can get squeezed at this point.

I think the company is suddenly desperate to spin it in their favor.

Do they really think anyone believes them at this point?

Then Sir, we must adjust our expectations and demands.

American and United will match us.

The market for our services is likely to properly be a gross add off > $1.5bn.

I am getting offers that match my current Delta income with all the overtime flying. So straight pay, going back to my old line of work is a better deal, especially when MUCH MUCH better healthcare, a defined benefit pension plan (of sorts, can't believe they still exist) and company stock are all above what Delta offers. As this continues and I keep looking at it, there could easily be a point where even a semi-senior Captain finds working here as just not worth it and leave. That is the market. ... and IMHO there are many pilots who are smarter, have a more diverse skill set and connections better than mine.

The nostalgic reasons for staying here are diminishing with every WOCL intrusion. Delta hired guys who believe in the magic. Ed's never been a believer. Numbers guys don't keep the faith.

FWIW This is in Endeavor’s contract, but zero Endeavor pilots are booked for deadheads in first class because of the “subject to pass policy” clause. DL’s pass policy prohibits it. So even though it’s in EDV’s contract, due the DL policy EDV pilots are never booked to DH in first class. On a MSP-ATL DH, the average EDV pilot is in seat 34B, just like a DL pilot.

If anyone is saying EDV pilots DH in first class, that is inaccurate.

It's OK, after we merge we will use their contract as the starting point for ours :-)

Should do. Be sure to include 9E’s profit sharing language ;)

Delta doesn't even have that clause in the PWA which makes Endeavor's deadhead section better than Delta's

Since when is MSP-ATL greater than 3.5 hours?

Endeavor pilots rarely get first or business because of two things. 1) how often do you have deadheads > 3.5 hours? 2) when you do, how many pilots even realize they should be bumped up?

When the company was sending pilots to Belgium for CRJ900 training many, many pilots rode first or business. I distinctly remember the company trying to wiggle out of it.

MSP-ATL was a bad example, it was the most recent painful memory. Did plenty of LGA-OMA, LGA-DSM, and some ATL-LAS DHs while on reserve and was always told DL’s policy against booking pilots in FC negated that portion of 9E’s contract. When 9E sends a 200 to the desert and DHs the pilots back to ATL or NYC, nobody’s booked in FC. Didn’t do any overseas training so can’t comment there, that was also during what is now an outdated contract but not sure if the language changed.

Apologies for the thread takeover. Back to the strike vote

Does EDV book EDV pilots in FC on EDV flights? It's probably like our crew meal policy, it only applies to a small portion of domestic flights.

Negative. This is from personal experience on routes like LGA-OMA and JFK-DFW. Given, to your point, 98% of EDV flying is on shorter routes and many of these longer routes have moved to the 220.

Looks like it’s on FoxNews online now…

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/delta-pilots-vote-overwhelmingly-authorize-strike

Good job to JA et al for pushing this out there. Hope it pushes the company in the right direction!

My first hand experience: EVERY flight I have deadheaded where Endeavor pilots were also deadheading had them in better seats than us. Usually both Endeavor pilots in Comfort Plus aisle or window and we were in main cabin. So there is something better about their deadheading policy at least in practice.

Awe Buck. I apologize. I didn’t mean to upset anyone. It’s not like I was telling about my experiences in the ‘Speed Line’ … the old cafeteria underneath the delta concourse.

Love and Peace.

Yes. Some of each is unavoidable; the remainder depends upon the individual’s ethics and commitment to the job.

Outsider here. I remember you saying the same thing in what, 2015 I think it was? How’d that work out for you? Let me guess. It’s different this time? Good thing tougher (& smarter) heads prevailed then, and now.

Historically sailing is 100% correct. What I think many of us on here believ he is failing to grasp, is the fact the game has changed. We are in demand and have leverage. We don’t need a quick tactical strike before they change their mind. We can go for the strategic strike and get some gains this industry has needed for years that were given up for the tactical attacks. Enough metaphors.

The company must think we are stupid. This is a snapshot from the last contract comparison (August 2018). Not sure if anyone has improved from these numbers but probably those who have newer contracts did.

Total vacation value (Days X hours per day)
FDX- 216
UPS- 175
Southwest- 160.6
Alaska- 143.5
Jet Blue- 140
UAL- 136.5
Delta- 126 (current)
Hawaiian- 114
American -113.7

So yeah we are pretty much lagging the industry. UAL by the way gets 6 weeks.

Scoop

the real question is, though... Has alpa changed with the changing times. Methinks not. I expect nothing different in their tactics

When half of the airline was hired in the last 6-9 years, it’s pretty easy to add another vacation year to the 25+ year longevity table. That is too little, too late.

I’d like another week at all longevities, thankyouverymuch. They might still be funding less total vacation across the list than they did in 2013, when accounting for the mass exodus of long service pilots off the top. Same goes for sick leave efficiencies they have gained of late.

Agree. I still read or hear comparing ourselves to other airlines and the paradigm is out of date as of the current. For starters we've never fully recovered from BK rates.
In the past 20 years there have been so many new jobs created. For example lets look at energy. In two decades Solar, Wind, and Electric vehicles have exploded. Think of what it take to design, produce, sell, market, and logistics with people power to make it all happen. Many great paying jobs have been created paying easily six figures and up.
There are so many great paying jobs for young adults to pursue and and pay very well and home every night.
So the question is, why are we in a shortage of pilots? Think we all know the short answer. It don't pay enough to get into it. In an industry that has proven volatile in terms of employment and many hours away from home.
It's time the whole industry ups the wages across the board. Based off of our 2000 contract I would guess a 737 captain should be pretty close to $430.00 an hour, and raises like 12/5/5 don't get us there.

He wasn’t correct in 2015, so 100% is a strong order. I’m not trying to attack but if we would have accepted TA1, it would have been a cataclysmic fail not only for us but the entire industry.

As you said times have changed, so the philosophy of “constructive collaboration” with the company is no longer relevant. It works when the company is in trouble(2004) but not when they are minting cash(2015).

One can argue the time value of money but 95% of us know better than that, thankfully.

I agree with all. My comment meant to start at TA1.

With that I agree…one thing Sailing is always spot on with is the profit sharing percentage.