Minimum Balance Plan
#171
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Where will the $$ go if the min balance is agreed upon? Not your 401k. That breaks IRS laws amigo. Ah…. The MBCBP or something else. We’ve already won the use of the MBCBP via one of the Covid LOA’s but like many other things here Delta hasn’t made it available yet and that’s due to US gov approval (so says Delta, even though it was supposed to be in play in tax year 2021).
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#172
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Where will the $$ go if the min balance is agreed upon? Not your 401k. That breaks IRS laws amigo. Ah…. The MBCBP or something else. We’ve already won the use of the MBCBP via one of the Covid LOA’s but like many other things here Delta hasn’t made it available yet and that’s due to US gov approval (so says Delta, even though it was supposed to be in play in tax year 2021).
The establishment of even a non-optional MBCBP does not require a minimum balance concept.
#173
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It is beyond silly that some senior pilots are on here stating they negotiated DC for junior pilots, ha! They negotiated DC because it benefitted all pilots equally and at that me they were mid-seniority and mid-career, when EQUAL across the board seemed like a good idea.
#174
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No I’m not. I said the seed money would most likely go into the MBCBP since it can’t go into your 401k. MBCBP is already agreed to.
#175
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the seed money is not required. So I’ll ask again, are those opposed to the min balance concept “selfish” and “snot-nosed,” or are there more qualifications?
#176
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Another way to explain this is:
Day one Min Balance in a MBCBP, $300,000
Day two, someone retires with $300,000 having contributed nothing - company pays all
15th of the month, after 401K is full, pilots' excess is routed into the MBCBP
Pilot retires the second year after the contract - they get $300,000 but $290,000 was funded by the company and $10,000 funded by the pilot's excess which is routed into the MBCBP
Pilot retires seven years from now. They get the $300,000 but it has been completely funded by their own excess, and so on, company contributes $0.
Easy to explain with a chart, but basically pilots retiring soonest gain the greatest benefit since they had no time to contribute their excess. In other words, they've been enjoying eating their cake and will get a cake too. Those who retire later get to bake their own cake and take it with them.
I would prefer not to ascribe motives to what the MEC is trying to do here. Obviously, the Min Balance only benefits those soon to retire. Any idea that junior pilots are "selfish" for not wanting to divert half a billion $ or so misses the mark. Any notion that senior pilots are "greedy" for wanting the security of more $ for an uncertain retirement also misses the mark. Assume everyone has unlimited greed. Also assume everyone is the head of a household with a family to support and nobody knows what this industry or the equities market (in whatever you invest in) is going to do.
It is beyond silly that some senior pilots are on here stating they negotiated DC for junior pilots, ha! They negotiated DC because it benefitted all pilots equally and at that me they were mid-seniority and mid-career, when EQUAL across the board seemed like a good idea.
My forecast is that After Thanksgiving when the decision makers are at the table the Negotiators will be given a bag of cash & the problem of how to allocate that cash across pay rates and min balance. They will take that problem to the MEC and get direction. The MEC will demand both. To get a deal done the thing will have to be allocated.
The company has no specific objection to a min balance, in fact, they likely don't care. They'll pull it from pay and let the MEC Reps fight it out.
Pay rates are better for the industry and for future pattern bargaining, JMHO.
Day one Min Balance in a MBCBP, $300,000
Day two, someone retires with $300,000 having contributed nothing - company pays all
15th of the month, after 401K is full, pilots' excess is routed into the MBCBP
Pilot retires the second year after the contract - they get $300,000 but $290,000 was funded by the company and $10,000 funded by the pilot's excess which is routed into the MBCBP
Pilot retires seven years from now. They get the $300,000 but it has been completely funded by their own excess, and so on, company contributes $0.
Easy to explain with a chart, but basically pilots retiring soonest gain the greatest benefit since they had no time to contribute their excess. In other words, they've been enjoying eating their cake and will get a cake too. Those who retire later get to bake their own cake and take it with them.
I would prefer not to ascribe motives to what the MEC is trying to do here. Obviously, the Min Balance only benefits those soon to retire. Any idea that junior pilots are "selfish" for not wanting to divert half a billion $ or so misses the mark. Any notion that senior pilots are "greedy" for wanting the security of more $ for an uncertain retirement also misses the mark. Assume everyone has unlimited greed. Also assume everyone is the head of a household with a family to support and nobody knows what this industry or the equities market (in whatever you invest in) is going to do.
It is beyond silly that some senior pilots are on here stating they negotiated DC for junior pilots, ha! They negotiated DC because it benefitted all pilots equally and at that me they were mid-seniority and mid-career, when EQUAL across the board seemed like a good idea.
My forecast is that After Thanksgiving when the decision makers are at the table the Negotiators will be given a bag of cash & the problem of how to allocate that cash across pay rates and min balance. They will take that problem to the MEC and get direction. The MEC will demand both. To get a deal done the thing will have to be allocated.
The company has no specific objection to a min balance, in fact, they likely don't care. They'll pull it from pay and let the MEC Reps fight it out.
Pay rates are better for the industry and for future pattern bargaining, JMHO.
All true but as pointed out by someone above vacation accrual has been accelerated. So everyone already on 5 weeks vacation gets squat from this benefit. If you were here 10-15 years you get a little bump from this and if you are a new hire you enjoy the full amount of this benefit.
Not saying I am for a minimum balance, but just pointing out the inconsistencies of the argument that it unfairly benefits the old guys - it does. Vacation accrual acceleration unfairly benefits the new guys - we could have just as easily added back a sixth or even 7th week week (which we use to have) which have benefited everyone equally.
I don't see many junior Pilots arguing how an accelerated vacation accrual is unfair to the senior Pilots - especially those howling against the minimum balance.
Which just goes to what I have always been saying - if the overall PWA is considered unfair by the majority it will be shot down. If various disaffected groups don't like particular aspects of the PWA the devil will be in the details, and if it does more overall good for the majority it will pass, unless of course it is a turd in which all demographics are equally insulted.
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Scoop
#177
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Everything in the contract benefits all. Even the ones not hired yet. The training pay, hotels for new hires and B scale just to name a few that used negotiating capital for the benefit of the junior guys. That no one on property when those were added or deleted benefitted from one cent. Come on man. There’s always give and take. Always.
The Min Balance only benefits pilots who will not be using their own money to fund it.
Looking around the industry, year-one pay rates are going to have to be around 20% to pass. Every fraction of a percent moved to Min Balance makes it less likely this will get to membership ratification.
tick tock
Scoop just brought up another reason to vote NO. I agree with his take on it.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 11-14-2022 at 12:55 PM.
#178
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All true but as pointed out by someone above vacation accrual has been accelerated. So everyone already on 5 weeks vacation gets squat from this benefit. If you were here 10-15 years you get a little bump from this and if you are a new hire you enjoy the full amount of this benefit.
Not saying I am for a minimum balance, but just pointing out the inconsistencies of the argument that it unfairly benefits the old guys - it does. Vacation accrual acceleration unfairly benefits the new guys - we could have just as easily added back a sixth or even 7th week week (which we use to have) which have benefited everyone equally.
I don't see many junior Pilots arguing how an accelerated vacation accrual is unfair to the senior Pilots - especially those howling against the minimum balance.
Which just goes to what I have always been saying - if the overall PWA is considered unfair by the majority it will be shot down. If various disaffected groups don't like particular aspects of the PWA the devil will be in the details, and if it does more overall good for the majority it will pass, unless of course it is a turd in which all demographics are equally insulted.![EEK!](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Scoop
Not saying I am for a minimum balance, but just pointing out the inconsistencies of the argument that it unfairly benefits the old guys - it does. Vacation accrual acceleration unfairly benefits the new guys - we could have just as easily added back a sixth or even 7th week week (which we use to have) which have benefited everyone equally.
I don't see many junior Pilots arguing how an accelerated vacation accrual is unfair to the senior Pilots - especially those howling against the minimum balance.
Which just goes to what I have always been saying - if the overall PWA is considered unfair by the majority it will be shot down. If various disaffected groups don't like particular aspects of the PWA the devil will be in the details, and if it does more overall good for the majority it will pass, unless of course it is a turd in which all demographics are equally insulted.
![EEK!](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Scoop
#179
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Argument: We got rid of the "B" Scale.
Response: The flying was moved the regionals which is known as the "C" scale because it was worse.
Argument: There is no negotiating capital spent on the Minimum Balance concept.
Response: It cost capital from our negotiations. If it doesn't, then we can close out the contract first, and ask for it after.
Argument: You weren't at Delta when those guys/gals went through bankruptcy, and age 65. Whatever you did before Delta doesn't matter.
Response: Guess you won't be needing any help from me to be made whole in retirement. (sorry, sympathy ran out during UNA talks)
Delta exited bankruptcy in 2007. $10,000 invested has since then has turned into $36,000 invested in the greater stock market. If you say that you were making so little you could not invest, try regional First Officer wages and student loans.
Response: The flying was moved the regionals which is known as the "C" scale because it was worse.
Argument: There is no negotiating capital spent on the Minimum Balance concept.
Response: It cost capital from our negotiations. If it doesn't, then we can close out the contract first, and ask for it after.
Argument: You weren't at Delta when those guys/gals went through bankruptcy, and age 65. Whatever you did before Delta doesn't matter.
Response: Guess you won't be needing any help from me to be made whole in retirement. (sorry, sympathy ran out during UNA talks)
Delta exited bankruptcy in 2007. $10,000 invested has since then has turned into $36,000 invested in the greater stock market. If you say that you were making so little you could not invest, try regional First Officer wages and student loans.
#180
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Had a DZ Captain tell me he considered the MBCBP like a gold watch at retirement. Sort of a “Thanks for doing the heavy lifting during the hard times” gesture.
He also suggested that we restore the original profit sharing, but just for the DL/NW guys who were here - and eliminating it for the rest. You know, since it was their investment.
He also suggested that we restore the original profit sharing, but just for the DL/NW guys who were here - and eliminating it for the rest. You know, since it was their investment.
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