Scope Language out
01-18-2023 | 04:36 AM
#51
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,104
Likes: 6
From: 737 A
Overall, I like it. Questions I came up with while reading it (haven't finished the NN yet, so maybe they're answered there):
- I'm cautious about AeroMexico, Latin America, and (now, potentially!) Canada being excluded, but as stated earlier, they're still covered by 1.E.
- India: "Atlantic Theater" is defined as all flying west of 90*E (all of India), but "Pacific Theater" is defined by referencing 1.B.45, which states: "flying on all routes (a) across the Pacific or Arctic ocean between North America (including Hawaii), on the one hand and Asia or Oceania, on the other hand". So is India counted as Atlantic of Pacific? -
- Block hour floors: These are nice, but what do they represent? What proportion of 2019 flying? 2022 flying? Do the hours take into account whatever growth may exist with LATAM and the new Korean Air? - Answered in the NN. 80% of 2018/19
- As stated here, what happens when a partner starts flying NB in theaters?
- What happens to the block hour floor during [choose your favorite global disaster here]? (I understand there's 2.X.13) "Circumstance over which the Company does not have control" excludes "the state of the economy", but that didn't age well with the Pacific hour block floor during COVID. What excuse did they use there? Why protections do we have against that here?
- Company can add two LAX-SYD flight pairs, allowing KLM to fly three additional AMS-JFK flights. It's one downside to using BH, but I think the NC makes a good case that the upsides far outweigh that potential downside.
01-18-2023 | 04:43 AM
#52
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Hawaii service has been stopping in SFO for gas.
Had high hopes for these NEOs but so far it has not been a plug-n-play replacement for a 757.
01-18-2023 | 05:13 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,286
Likes: 18
I don’t necessarily disagree, but how close are we talking? More or less than 4 years?
01-18-2023 | 05:14 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: LAX ER
ok. I think you might want to brush up on the 321XLR and how Airbus is advertising it to airlines. Segments like TPA-CDG, DEN-LHR are within its capabilities. I understand that on many segments a wide body aircraft will make more economic sense, but my point stands that not addressing a market trend in long range narrow bodies is an error.
01-18-2023 | 05:23 AM
#55
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,995
Likes: 176
If all the theaters dropped to the floors simultaneously, it doesn’t mean management weaseled out of the agreement. It means a 9/11 or Covid: the foreign airlines would have had to drop substantially too.
I think the practical working of the theater floors *could* more play out with one theater much higher DL metal than our partners. This puts a limit of how much flexibility we give them with layovers.
EX: Atlantic DL metal 120%, Pacific DL 80%, SA DL 110%
01-18-2023 | 05:42 AM
#56
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,995
Likes: 176
Overall, I like it. Questions I came up with while reading it (haven't finished the NN yet, so maybe they're answered there):
- I'm cautious about AeroMexico, Latin America, and (now, potentially!) Canada being excluded, but as stated earlier, they're still covered by 1.E.
- India: "Atlantic Theater" is defined as all flying west of 90*E (all of India), but "Pacific Theater" is defined by referencing 1.B.45, which states: "flying on all routes (a) across the Pacific or Arctic ocean between North America (including Hawaii), on the one hand and Asia or Oceania, on the other hand". So is India counted as Atlantic of Pacific? -
- Block hour floors: These are nice, but what do they represent? What proportion of 2019 flying? 2022 flying? Do the hours take into account whatever growth may exist with LATAM and the new Korean Air? - Answered in the NN. 80% of 2018/19
- As stated here, what happens when a partner starts flying NB in theaters?
- What happens to the block hour floor during [choose your favorite global disaster here]? (I understand there's 2.X.13) "Circumstance over which the Company does not have control" excludes "the state of the economy", but that didn't age well with the Pacific hour block floor during COVID. What excuse did they use there? Why protections do we have against that here?
- Company can add two LAX-SYD flight pairs, allowing KLM to fly three additional AMS-JFK flights. It's one downside to using BH, but I think the NC makes a good case that the upsides far outweigh that potential downside.
“Pacific Theater” means (a) Pacific Flying, as defined by Section 1 B. 45. and 2 A. 201., (b) flying on all routes between the United States and Hawaii, and (c) flying on all routes between (i) a point in the United States, and (ii) a point that is west of longitude 145° W (excluding any points in North America) and east of longitude 90° E.
“Atlantic Theater” means flying on all routes between (a) a point in the United States, and (b) a point that is east of longitude 30° W and west of longitude 90° E.
90E cuts through Bangladesh. India looks to be wholly Atlantic.
01-18-2023 | 05:48 AM
#57
Rodeo clown
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
From: Tractor seat
I still think the business case for NB at distance is pretty thin. It only really makes sense if you’re someone like JB, trying to get your toe in the market. The moment that JB has the steady demand and suitable airport slot, they’ll open they’re first WB route. We have enough network and market to feed those ocean crossings via WB. Neither we, nor our JVs are going to fly NB aircraft and use up a valuable airport slot anytime we can fly even the smallest WB (300ER or 787 if you’re a JV).
01-18-2023 | 06:15 AM
#58
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,104
Likes: 6
From: 737 A
I still think the business case for NB at distance is pretty thin. It only really makes sense if you’re someone like JB, trying to get your toe in the market. The moment that JB has the steady demand and suitable airport slot, they’ll open they’re first WB route. We have enough network and market to feed those ocean crossings via WB. Neither we, nor our JVs are going to fly NB aircraft and use up a valuable airport slot anytime we can fly even the smallest WB (300ER or 787 if you’re a JV).
01-18-2023 | 06:26 AM
#59
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 432
Likes: 11
Trip I generally like your positive outlook, but to me this oversight is egregious.
We fly a lot of random routes to CDG/AMS/LHR mostly in the sooner or later retiring 7ER that could be accomplished by our partners in an NB. Those will not count against our scope with this global agreement.
On top of that I assume that our 320 category pilots would enjoy a RDU-CDG flight every once in awhile.
All this TA needs to be a win is some sort of balanced long haul NB hours clause. To me it’s a no until it is included.
We fly a lot of random routes to CDG/AMS/LHR mostly in the sooner or later retiring 7ER that could be accomplished by our partners in an NB. Those will not count against our scope with this global agreement.
On top of that I assume that our 320 category pilots would enjoy a RDU-CDG flight every once in awhile.
All this TA needs to be a win is some sort of balanced long haul NB hours clause. To me it’s a no until it is included.
01-18-2023 | 06:47 AM
#60
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 643
Likes: 13
From: Currently freeloading
India:
“Pacific Theater” means (a) Pacific Flying, as defined by Section 1 B. 45. and 2 A. 201., (b) flying on all routes between the United States and Hawaii, and (c) flying on all routes between (i) a point in the United States, and (ii) a point that is west of longitude 145° W (excluding any points in North America) and east of longitude 90° E.
“Atlantic Theater” means flying on all routes between (a) a point in the United States, and (b) a point that is east of longitude 30° W and west of longitude 90° E.
90E cuts through Bangladesh. India looks to be wholly Atlantic.
“Pacific Theater” means (a) Pacific Flying, as defined by Section 1 B. 45. and 2 A. 201., (b) flying on all routes between the United States and Hawaii, and (c) flying on all routes between (i) a point in the United States, and (ii) a point that is west of longitude 145° W (excluding any points in North America) and east of longitude 90° E.
“Atlantic Theater” means flying on all routes between (a) a point in the United States, and (b) a point that is east of longitude 30° W and west of longitude 90° E.
90E cuts through Bangladesh. India looks to be wholly Atlantic.
In either case it gets counted as part of the total block hours, but it matters which theater it gets counted for, because that means less other flights required in that theater to meet the block floor.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
