Have you consider the fact that you are “discounted” so readily is because you are condescending and you throw out single line statements that seemingly are only meant to dismiss with no actual reasoning or ideas followed by a “woe is me” blanket statement about how young kids have no respect for their elders?

”You’re so naive”
”You’ll learn”

Back up your “facts” or you’re going to continue to be discounted because you don’t provide any reasoning behind your shots at anyone you don’t agree with.

This is true.

[QUOTE=notEnuf;3714927]You are describing the very definition of apathy.

Topic arises > decides not to care enough to form a strong opinion > chooses not to vote.

[QUOTE=CruJones;3715177]https://tenor.com/search/must-vote-gifshttps://tenor.com/search/must-vote-gifsTime to start a new campaign…

Vote or Die Southpark

During aircraft upgrade training my father had a massive heart attack. The Company said they would keep the 727 out of service for a day or two if I wanted to go see him. (TX to FL) I said I would finish training first. However that thought bought them many "Just hang on days." .... The way it was.

sadly that ‘business margin’ has been monetized nowadays. It’s too bad, I wonder if the profit was worth it.

JB-

Do you have strong opinions about everything? If you don't know a candidate, then all you have to go on is the campaign sales letter. Politicians lie to get votes BTW. When the election comes is your research always complete and conclusive?

That wasn't my quote. That belonged to [MENTION=59952]notEnuf[/MENTION]

You hit on a really important issue which is precisely why we need term limits. These reps are politicians. And I will paint with a really broad brush here... ALL of them are politicians. And when (sic) "they aren't kissing babies they are trying to steal their lolipops". Anything they can do to stay in power is what they will do. It's funny that you hear talk about how arduous being a rep is, yet some of them get there and stay forever. Do your own math on that.

That is what over 30 years have taught me. Like many of the young guys on here, when I was younger I was a full on ALPA supporter and I watched contract after contract get negotiated and signed and ALPA would crow about how great the job they did was... only to see happen EXACTLY what is happening now.... right here on this very forum... complaint after complaint about how the company is violating the contract and how this isn't right and that isn't right. blah blah blah. Didn't they crow about how they 'fixed' all these issues and that THIS is the greatest contract ever? The one thing I will say they succeeded at is getting us paid for company transgressions, but I saw relatively little that actually got 'fixed'. ymmv.

I'm out of here in 2 (hopefully 4) years, so I am not really affected anymore by what the association does (or doesn't do). But... it pains me to watch the same mistakes being made by the membership that we have made over all the time I was here. I almost have to chuckle when I get asked why I didn't vote to fix the retirement issue before when it did (or didn't) come up. It is because I naively trusted what the MEC was saying...that 'this' was the best we were going to get. Frankly that particular thing is both embarrassing and humiliating. Then THIS MEC comes along and states they have a 4 pillar plan/agenda for C19 which included something for retirement for my demographic. Well that turned out to be a gigantic LIE now didn't it? Can you concede that? They. LIED. (And fwiw, I didn't expect a return of a DB pension nor did I really want one. It was interesting that they rubbed arsenic in the wound however by holding off on the DC contribution increases for a year wasn't it?).

So I implore you to learn from this. Change the diaper occasionally. Every election preferably. NONE of them are indispensable. NONE of them are so smart or brilliant that the association would fall apart without them. Didn't Hartmann's ARCOS giveback debacle not teach you this? And HE isn't elected by YOU. He has ZERO accountability to the line pilot. That particular thing doesn't affect me on the Panda, but I have read the complaints on here about it. But I'll let the rationalization begin on that. Go to a PUB event sometime at a location NOT in ATL. Count the rep to constituent ratio. They are drinking on YOUR nickel. In the mornings at the MEC, they drink coffee and eat doughnuts that YOU pay for. There's more that I won't go into on here. And lastly, stop using the word 'volunteer' when referring to union reps. They are politicians. They are professionals. What I suggest is changing the bylaws so that should they run unopposed they be allowed to be re-elected. If there is any competition for the seat, they MUST drop out. Go back to the line and actually live under the thing they negotiated.

/eor... standing by for incoming.

A person running a political campaign for a political office is a politician?! Man. You learn something new every day.

Not surprising that that is all you got out of that. I'd give anything to come back in 30 years and see if you are still mainlining the koolaid.

I didn't read your whole rant because it just was a rambling mess. That and because your entire premise is backwards. In fact, I'm sure you adamantly support BK and loathe the C44 reps. And the ironic part about that is even in my short tenure, there has been a complete turnover of that council 3 or 4 times. When was BK first elected?

As someone with 25+ years left, I can say that disregarding the 4th pillar is not a future mistake by junior. I fully expect all that money to be stolen by the .gov, the math makes that a certainty.

Thanks! Good stuff to think about.

That's the problem with you noobs. James actually had some good nuggets of info in there subtlety explained. Yes some of what he wrote was way out there, but you totally missed his main point. Again it's subtle and in the undertones of his post (PM him, he'll answer you and be a little more open). Have to be careful here as he is a public figure and he has to be mindful of some of this boomeranging back. He posts some very truthful stuff. You noobs just don't want to listen to it. And that is a problem we have within this pilot group right now. This is not Sky West, Endeavor, PSA, Mesa or Air Whiskey. This is Delta Air Lines. You would best be served to maybe open your aperture and listen and read and ask question to us folks who've been around this place just a bit longer than you have. I and many of my counter parts do listen to what you noobs have to say. I've gottne some good ideas from some of you. You bring in new ideas and youth. All good for this group. I've always offered some stuff crossing the pond(s). Some of you listen, many of you do not. So to tell us we need to educate you, like someone posted elsewhere, well we are trying. You all are a tough lot though. Hard to break through the armor of the smart watch ear buds and your instagram. Here's Where I start my education of you. Go back and read (or re-read) Flying the Line Vol 1&2. Then read Fate is the Hunter. Then go read about how Icahn and the rest of his ilk gutted out this industry for their own personal profit. Now, when done with that, let's chat. I'd be happy to pass on what I've seen and learned here over the decades.

Calling us noobs help.

That’s why no one listens to you.

Try using some tact FFS

Well, you are. You are new here to this air line. That's a fact.

You call me a boomer, I could give a rats ass. Is what it is.

I also foolishly and naively trusted what DALPA recommended and voted for LOA 46 - you know to keep us out of BK. When we promptly sailed right into BK at 32% lower rates I learned my lesson. DALPA recommended LOA 51 in which we as a Pilot group said we would not fight the BK termination and you know what, the Delta Pilots voted for it. When 100% of us Pilots had a DB we did not fight it. I voted No, the only time ever I voted in the minority, because I was still upset with being played on LOA 46 and also becasue I knew we would never ever get a DB back.

So although I think the current contract slants in favor of the junior demographic I don't feel we can blame junior Pilots for not fighting for the retirement pillar since we didn't fight for ourselves - when every single Pilot on the property had a DB.

Other than throw cash at guys on the way out the door (slim chance) and short of a DB coming back (never going to happen) what really could we have done? Maybe a bridge medical plan? 18% 401K at signing? I personally would have liked to have seen a 6th week of vacation vs faster accrual. This would have benefited the more senior guys and the junior guys would also benefit from it. The time to have fought for the pension was LOA 51 and we folded like a cheap suit. I just don't know what guys were realistically expecting with that pillar. I don't really expect much from DALPA. I submitted an ACE in May and they got back to me yesterday and asked when I called the company to stop my 120 day clock. WTF? Wait over 120 days to tell me I have a 120 day clock - DALPA in a nutshell. Pathetic.

Scoop

And it’s obvious you can’t teach an old dog new tricks

Enjoy retirement

You have had many many months of communications that you need to contact the company. That L is firmly on you my friend.

Also should be pointed out that you’re just another pilot who doesn’t read the PWA. 18.B.

I guess since I have been here less than you in a noob. But I definitely don't trust the company and i know alpa is also out to sell itself. Which I find ironic about you pushing to reading flying the line since its an alpa publication, not that isn't a bad read, but how hard up against alpa you are it's funny you push the propaganda.

A contract is only worth what you negotate and what can be won in arbitration. The company is puling the hard line now, they were always going to flight the new contract every company does, it’s nothing new.

Not sure why you need to belittle your lesser/noob pilots. Sure telling it how it is I can agree with but disregarding some of our experiences because they are not your own is niave. The sooner you realize every pilot votes for what's best for them then sooner you realize alpa is a professional organization with "lobby" power, the sooner you can rest easy.

I'm not blaming the junior pilots. I'm blaming the MEC. They LIED. Period. Just like they always do.

You are right. We should have voted to retain the pension when OUR MEC LIED to us way back when. But we didn't. And in a way, we fell for it again as well by listening to them talk of a 4th pillar. This MEC is as politically calculating as any I've seen in my 32 years here. It's reprehensible.

CBreezy doesn't want to listen to the experience. Fine. He will learn it the hard way, just like I did and it will also take him 30 years to do so.. Hopefully enough others will listen and at least consider some of the things I posted and overrule his koolaid infused voting block. Or they can hand Darren Hartmann the throne in DC just like they did with Ambrosi. And Hartmann was the guy that UNILATERALLY gave a concession to the company. You just can't make this up.

Of course you didn't. Because you already know it all.

Guilty as charged - I own the L. OBTW that is not the only section of the PWA that I don't read. If preventing future L's depends on me becoming intimately familiar with the PWA then I will gladly take up those Ls as well. But how hard would it be to have an automated response to an Ace report reminding Pilots to call the company? I probably read that somewhere but obviously did not memorize it . Oh well that's life.

But the fact that they respond after 120 days and then tell me about a 120 day clock is pretty lame.

Scoop

It wasn't essential that the 4th pillar was a return to DB. As I have said many times, I didn't want that either... it wasn't my personal goal. The MBCBP was a good step, but it took for-damned-ever to implement. The increase to the DC was a good thing, but again, why so long to implement? That didn't benefit but a very few of those that needed it. So thank you very little MEC.

It is interesting that you believe the .gov will steal your money. I don't disagree either as I know they are probably drooling at all the ROTH IRA money out there and those multimillion dollar 401(k)s that you will have. So you should be asking yourself the same question I asked myself years ago when ALPA gave away our pensions; 'How do you protect yourself?" Fortunately, my wife was far smarter than I was because as a newhire and the DB was presented, she said the whole thing looked like a house of cards way back then. So we structured our lives based on the fact that it was a fantasy. Thank God for her wisdom beyond her years. But now you have the 401k. That beautiful little sliver in the tax code that allows you to squirrel away a little tax deferred monies. Nah. They could never take that away, could they? You are wise sir. They will come for it. Someday. Guaranteed.

But what disregarding the 4th pillar was, was a giant **** you to those of us that gave you profit sharing and the 401k. Thanks for that.

I would have voted against TA1 and for TA2 had I not been on military leave. So I guess I would have stopped further dilution of profit sharing? I voted for this contract, so I guess I voted for these pay rates, the me-too resulting in 2% more, 17 and then 18% DC, more vacation value, better training pay, crappy crew meals, etc.

Just so I can extrapolate from what you’re saying…can I tell noobs that I gave them that stuff 10 or 20 years down the road? Personally I wouldn’t have thought to claim credit for a contract but you guys seem to do that a lot. What am I missing? Were you a negotiator? Consultant? Rep?

The government will replace large retirement accounts with some kind of bond annuity, the money will then be dumped into entitlements. The legislation is already written. We will get no more money out of it, than someone who saved $5 for retirement. How you protect yourself is to live like Warren Buffet, well below your means.

Why did it take so long to implement? Did you even read the communications on why they had to wait until October of this year?

I want to know what you define as a “not new pilot”. Pre 2014? Pre 9/11? Pre you? I honestly want to know where that line is if the people you despise so much.

James, you’ve been here for a long time and do have a more contrarian opinion on Delta and ALPA. Everyone appreciates your perspective because it comes from a lifetime of experience.

I just worry that you lose a lot of open ears by the combative nature of your posting. Sometimes it feels like you’re just looking for a fight. Im not specifically highlighting this post, it was just the last one you posted on this thread.

Not that I’m some kind of pillar of wisdom, but I’ve realized that every single day I find myself “mad” about something, especially something beyond my control, I realize I’m just stealing a day from myself, from a pool of rapidly dwindling days that compose the remainder of my conscious existence.

Is my family healthy? Are they also safe and happy? Do I get meaning what I do for a living?

I realized that once these three things are fulfilled then “happiness” is entirely an internal function of the will (at least for me). All the ancillary annoyances in the day to day are just dust in my eyes that I realized I can just blink away.

I get if this is just a fun side distraction on APC, but being mad all the time about how you were wronged in the past is not, in my opinion, worthy of your time as a big balling delta A350 captain. Your seat right now is literally the dream destination of the 1 million or so commercial airline pilots who are alive today! Perspective!

anyways I enjoy reading your posts. But just don’t let ALPA or Delta take away from your happiness!

It’s been determined before ad nauseam and written into the PWA. You have to have had your anus inspected/bleached at the interview physical examination.

No inspection = not new pilot

I feel like pointing out that 16% vs 17%/18% in 401k contributions, versus say, raising base pay by 1%-2%, are basically the same thing.

To pose a question:

Would you rather have:

1) a 2% raise to base pay

or

2) 2% higher 401k contributions?

The answer varies to each individual's scenario. The 2% raise will increase overall compensation more. The 2% higher 401k *might* lower overall tax burden on that extra money, despite lower overall compensation.

My point being, it doesn't make sense to say that "401k contributions weren't raised quickly enough therefore older pilots were left out" while simultaneously disregarding base pay increases.

2% base pay increase would give me 2% more the 401k contributions looked at plus a pay raise. So yeah, I’m option 1 all day long.

Of course he didn’t. Just like he didn’t read anything other than his “ignored” 4th pillar.

Let me guess, you don't fly the line. You lecture contract all day, everyday, and have the entire thing memorized. I still don't know how you document a stopped clock. What are we doing, stopping an auto expiration on company foot dragging, that should be on the company and we should be suing for stolen wages. Pathetic that there isn't an immediate response to filing an ACE with step by step directions on clock stoppage and any other hoops we are required to navigate. Complete Bull Schmidt. Step up and do something about this, and quit lecturing super secret decoder crap. Please refer me to the publications on clock stoppage and the like because your contract reference doesn't apply. 14 "business days" eats up 20ish days of that time period too so now it's down to 100 or less? Then a rep or scheduling committee member will tell you to try to work it out with the company before filing an ACE report. Tick Tock. Which side is DALPA on?

No pilot should have to do any of that because all of these errors are "bookkeeping errors"

Exception one: The 120-day limit does not apply to claims for adjustment arising out of bookkeeping errors.

Id just like to point out that at JB’s level of pay, 1 vs. 2 is irrelevant, as that “spill cash” will come to him by 31 Dec regardless. It’s just a matter of if he opted out of the MBCPB for which account it goes into.

Id also like to +1 Extenda’s excellent post above. Very well put. JB reread your couple posts here, and then Scoop’s. Consider the tone of each, and which one you find more compelling. Unless you just want to rant…

Yes, but there are tax reasons to prefer more going into a 401k tax-free. But in general I agree with you.

Here's a sample using $100k (yea we all make more than that, but lets use easy numbers):

Control Sample:

$100k with 16% 401k = $100k + $16k (401k) = $116k total comp.

Sample A (2% increase to base compensation):

$102k with 16% 401k = $102k + 16.3k (401k) = $118.3k total comp

Sample B (2% increase to 401k compensation)

$100k with 18% 401k = $100k + 18k (401k) = $118k total comp


Again, my point is that hinging 4th pillar on strictly 401k benefits, while disregarding base pay, is a fallacy.

I'll add an ignorant question: Is 4th pillar for older pilots in terms of age? Or rather, seniority? The two are not necessarily the same.

Option 1 is for me as well. Actually, I'll take the value of the crew meals as well.

thanks for this. Seriously. It is more of a distraction than anything, and I know I get a little "combative". I just hate to see y'all make the same mistakes we made and you ARE going down that road. I guess it's just nature.

Best of luck. CBW 23 starts today, hopefully culminating in a big win over Kentucky. See you on the other side.

Yep you got me. I didn't read a thing.


Enjoy your batch sizes