Airbrake

As the title says I’m a 717B living in DTW. I’m considering a change and a Captain I flew with recently said I’d be crazy to not bid NYC330B. I’d be 80% BES. His advice was to either bid/pickup trips that start with a DH, or drop my sched in NYC and rebuild it with OOBWS in DTW. Worst case scenario I commute (told myself I never would) which wouldn’t be terrible since the vast majority of NYC trips are commutable on both ends.

1) How bad is the DTW-NYC commute?
2) Should I expect to sit RES with several SC’s a month?
3) Wide report seems to show I could hold a line easily in Jan, what about the rest of the year?
3) I know OOBWS is somewhat frowned upon, is that strategy even feasible and if so will it upset people?
4) I assume trips that start with a DH will go Sr to me correct?
5) SWAG on when I could hold DTW outright?

Any advice would be appreciated.

fishforfun

I can’t speak too much for reserve but bidding as many 4 day blocks helps. DH start and ends go pretty senior.

Choosing to commute while living in base seems like a questionable idea. I do agree with going to 330 when you can, but maybe wait a year and can hold DTW unless the trips are that bad.

Fastpilot

Don’t commute. Wait until you can hold DTW
I think you'd be crazy to give up a drive to work.

Vsop

I volunteered to commute to NYC rather than drive to
work. To make it work you need a mindset that sometimes the commute will suck and that’s ok. For me LGA was easier to get to/from than JFK, so I did a lot of back and forth. It was pretty rare that I got totally stuck in NYC.

The NYC WB flying is far superior to my home base in MSP. The same could probably be said about DTW.
At 80% you should hold a line most months if that’s what you want. However you might prefer reserve as pairings that start/end with a DH should be easiest to achieve on reserve. The strategy is to bid 4 or 5 days of availability. CS will break up 6 day trips into two 4 day trips. Each of those will have a DH day.

To do the OOBWS game you need to be incredibly flexible with your schedule as those trips are
assigned close in.

It’s hard to guess when you will be able to hold DTW 330. I’d say wait to bid 330 until you can hold NB A in DTW. If you don’t like the WB sleep schedule or NYC commute, the upgrade will allow you an out.

crewdawg

Former DTW330B/Current 717A. Was this Captain a commuter? If so, keep in mind that commuters tend to downplay how bad their commute is becuase they've just grown accustomed to the rat race. There is no way I'd recomend a commute to anyone who has the ability to drive to work, not even for a WB. Dropping and picking up trips with DH days and/or OOBWS requires that staffing stays good enough for you to clear your schedule and you have a completely flexible schedule. Whether it's commutable on both ends or not, you still have to commute.

Using a hypothetical 1900 sign-in this week, instead of leaving an hour (or less) prior to sign-in, you're leaving 8 hours prior to sign it. To get it down to 8 hours, you're likely going through LGA and doing the JFK shuffle, which isn't terrible but still painful and costs. When I looked at NYC330 instead of displacing off the 330, I figured I'd spend and extra 24ish days/yr away from home. That assumed 4ish commutes/month, no bad weather, no hotel stays due to missed commutes and/or no extra cushion due to tight loads/JS. You really have to want an 8-10 hour fatigue-filled walk around Europe to spend nearly an extra month away from home per year.


1. Direct to JFK was always spotty because they used to only have 3 flights/day, all one RJ's. Looks like it's 4 now, with 50/50 RJ/mainline. Still, the infrequency likely means you're going through LGA to have the backup flight. It was usually pretty "easy," but that went to crap with the least bit of weather in the area.

2. Too many variables. On the WB, there is such a thing as too junior for reserve.

3. Unk

3 (number 2 lol). Who cares what people think of OOBWS, it's allowed and your right.

4. I lived on dropping my schedule and picking up trips that began/ended with a DH. At 90% it was relatively easy to do but I was doing that in-base and this was a few years ago, so my information is dated. I thought NYC had fewer 6 days, so it might not be as easy in NYC.

5. Unknown, but in my opinion, it's worth waiting over commuting to NYC.

iaflyer

The Captain is crazy.

1) The commute is ok, just not a lot of flights. JFK is often full on the RJ (so you can't book the JS). LGA is fine, but EWR is far from JFK and a pain or expensnive to get to from EWR.

2) If on reserve, SC is a usual thing unless you have a trip, unless you have less than 3 days of availablity.

3) A line is probable at 80%, because reserve goes senior in the winter I'm guessing. Summer the reserves are going to be flying, so no benefit for senior people bidding it in the summer. But more flying in the summer so more lines.

3) OOBWS is a pipe dream at 80%. It comes after in base reserve, and I rarely see them in trip coverage. I was previously 330B in DTW just doing WS in base was hard to fill up when I dropped a few trips. Anyone who is OOBWS is very senior and basically sitting reserve because you aren't getting them until 2 days prior to the trip. Go through DTW 330B coverage and see how many OOBWS get awarded.

4) Trips with a DH will go very senior, as often you can deviate and arrive the same day as the departure, saving yourself a trip. So a senior pilot basically gets paid a 4 days but only flies a 3 day. Also, many 330 pilots are commuters and will gladly pickup swap a trip without a DH for one with a DH. Or bid them to start or end a trip.

Finally, you'll make more money as a 717B in base riding the GS train rather than being 330B. Yes, higher pay rate but lower vacation bidding, and you much higher 717B seniority will net you much more GS action, esp in base where you can easily do a shoter notice GS.

Bid DTW 330B if you want the lifestyle, it will come. I commuted to NYC 7ER B for several years, before I could hold it in DTW (I live here), I was home 2 more days PER WEEK when I held it in DTW. (because not having to commute in early or sitting SC in NYC). That adds up. Also, for a 4pm show in NYC, I had to leave my house at 8am to commute in - back when there were many more flights. Add in the time commuting home after a trip too..

m3113n1a1

Absolutely not worth it. Commuting when you live in a base is insanity. If you want more money right now bid NB captain in DTW. If you want the widebody lifestyle, wait until you can hold it in DTW. The amount of time and stress to commute to NYC is just not worth it when you have much better options.

Or... move to New York.

NoDeskJob

Good stuff above.

but to clarify something someone said above about trying to OBWS…

if the trip reports in less than 18 hours, OBWS has priority over a Reserve being assigned the trip.
the only exception is if the in base reserve has in a YellowSlip to fly.

pwa 23.0

FangsF15

2. As already said, 80% should be able to get a line most months. the 330 is a 4-99-4 Category, so you will have 4 days of reserve minimum. It's a lot harder to manage reserve bocks in an international category (you can drop a PB in the middle if you have them, but generally you can't PD down to 1 or 2 days of reserve). So if on Reserve, generally expect to get either a 4- day trip or SC on Day 1. International SC's are used far less often than domestic, but as a commuter it doesn't really matter much since you have to commute anyway.

3. I know I'm spitting in the wind here, but I'll advocate the opposite viewpoint on what I'll call elective OOBWS. Just like you CAN use all your sick leave annually, but if you are not actually sick it's cheating and wrong. I know OOBWS is in the contract, so it's not 'illegal', but I personally have a distaste for the practice of intentionally bidding a category you do not intent to fly in, so you can (try to) fly entirely in a category you cannot hold. It's one thing for a new hire, or someone displaced, to OOBWS when the company has involuntarily put you in a tough situation, and you are just trying to lessen the suck until you can get out of it. It's something else to choose to game the system, and yes it's at the expense of fellow pilots. Especially when you don't even have the seniority to hold what you are otherwise trying to do in the first place. And FWIW, I'm not going to begrudge a commuter getting an occasional good deal. That's fine. Again, it's in the contract and legal, I just don't like making it your 'default' - and I wish ALPA would change the contract to limit OOBWS to 2 a month (or similar) to prevent the practice of entirely flying in a different category than your own. That will probably never happen, but still...

4. Low 70's% overall seniority sems to be where WB B is (pretty) consitently being awarded lately. There have been one or two flashes of something a little junior to that, but until we have more actual growth deliveries, that's probably as good a guess as anyone can make. Probably...

All that said, do what you want - no-one can actually do or say anything to you if you make that choice. As already stated, the wisest move would be to wait until you can hold 717A in DTW, to give you an 'out' if you find the circadian disruption or the commute unlivable. But if you do go for the 330, you'll almost certainly love it. It's like working for a differnt company. Best of luck.

PilotBases

Fairly certain 717A is junior to 330B, so that shouldn’t be an issue at least.