Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-23-2013, 11:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
I won't disagree with what you say but you need to explain this in a different way to me.
What I read was that your vacation credit of 3:15 per day still counts towards the total time PBS will award you. If I have a week of vacation it's worth 22:45. Say the ALV for the month is 72:30. That makes the upper limit that PBS can award you 80 hrs. In a month with vacation and this 80 hr upper limit, PBS cannot award you more than 57:15 (plus 22:45=80hrs). This hasn't changed with vacation any. At least this was how I read it. All "vacation any" allows is for you to get some of that 57:15 over the time of your scheduled vacation by swapping it for different days in the month. It doesn't allow you to pick up more time than you could before "vacation any." I don't see where it allows you to fly any more or less hours than before. Am I wrong? If so, how? How does this cost jobs compared to what we had before?
I would love to have touching trips for vacation.....
Denny
What I read was that your vacation credit of 3:15 per day still counts towards the total time PBS will award you. If I have a week of vacation it's worth 22:45. Say the ALV for the month is 72:30. That makes the upper limit that PBS can award you 80 hrs. In a month with vacation and this 80 hr upper limit, PBS cannot award you more than 57:15 (plus 22:45=80hrs). This hasn't changed with vacation any. At least this was how I read it. All "vacation any" allows is for you to get some of that 57:15 over the time of your scheduled vacation by swapping it for different days in the month. It doesn't allow you to pick up more time than you could before "vacation any." I don't see where it allows you to fly any more or less hours than before. Am I wrong? If so, how? How does this cost jobs compared to what we had before?
I would love to have touching trips for vacation.....
Denny
06-23-2013, 12:04 PM
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Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Really! Everyone on here says we are money ***** and that the company depends on us to pick up extra flying. We have a handful of SLI's and thy only fly the line one month a year (maybe two). Either way, if hiring did occur and new hires were getting training all the FO's that were to fly with those LCA are now able to pick up more flying.....ie white slip on top of original trip for GS pay or GS on top of original trip for triple pay!!
I find your rumor or reasoning flawed.
I find your rumor or reasoning flawed.
06-23-2013, 12:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Denny
06-23-2013, 12:11 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
I won't disagree with what you say but you need to explain this in a different way to me.
What I read was that your vacation credit of 3:15 per day still counts towards the total time PBS will award you. If I have a week of vacation it's worth 22:45. Say the ALV for the month is 72:30. That makes the upper limit that PBS can award you 80 hrs. In a month with vacation and this 80 hr upper limit, PBS cannot award you more than 57:15 (plus 22:45=80hrs). This hasn't changed with vacation any. At least this was how I read it. All "vacation any" allows is for you to get some of that 57:15 over the time of your scheduled vacation by swapping it for different days in the month. It doesn't allow you to pick up more time than you could before "vacation any." I don't see where it allows you to fly any more or less hours than before. Am I wrong? If so, how? How does this cost jobs compared to what we had before?
I would love to have touching trips for vacation.....
Denny
What I read was that your vacation credit of 3:15 per day still counts towards the total time PBS will award you. If I have a week of vacation it's worth 22:45. Say the ALV for the month is 72:30. That makes the upper limit that PBS can award you 80 hrs. In a month with vacation and this 80 hr upper limit, PBS cannot award you more than 57:15 (plus 22:45=80hrs). This hasn't changed with vacation any. At least this was how I read it. All "vacation any" allows is for you to get some of that 57:15 over the time of your scheduled vacation by swapping it for different days in the month. It doesn't allow you to pick up more time than you could before "vacation any." I don't see where it allows you to fly any more or less hours than before. Am I wrong? If so, how? How does this cost jobs compared to what we had before?
I would love to have touching trips for vacation.....
Denny
Your example is accurate but consider the effect when you are able to break a week's vacation into individual days and sprinkle them around between your trips.
I don't guess I'm smart enough to describe a specific PBS example but it just seems intuitively obvious that this is going to make it easier to build more efficient lines around vacations.
The way it is now, the blocked week of vacation is put on your schedule first and the trips have to fit around it. With "vacation any" you build the schedule first and then PBS just puts individual vacation days on your days off. Its like you don't even have a "vacation". You need the days off for FAR rest anyway. Now you'll be able to call it vacation and a 24 in 7 break all in one. It becomes much easier to build a line and especially to build a line to the upper end of the construction window.
Seems like white slipping to 120 hours will also become easier if you don't have solid weeks blocked off.
06-23-2013, 12:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Denny is correct.
Now, I will admit, it probably helps WB guys more than domestic NB guys and I used it when I flew the 12 day Asia trips at NWA.
The trip construction window stays the same. All it means is you fly one trip (that you want) and sprinkle your vacation days around it VS flying two trips in a normal non-vacation month.
Right now, on a vacation month I fly a couple of trips I don't want that fit around vacation and probably carry out into the next month......or I sit reserve.
Anyway, I disagree it costs jobs. If someone smart can put pencil to paper and show me how it would I'll read it but I just don't see it. I honestly think it doesn't effect jobs one way or the other.
JMHO,
Ferd
Now, I will admit, it probably helps WB guys more than domestic NB guys and I used it when I flew the 12 day Asia trips at NWA.
The trip construction window stays the same. All it means is you fly one trip (that you want) and sprinkle your vacation days around it VS flying two trips in a normal non-vacation month.
Right now, on a vacation month I fly a couple of trips I don't want that fit around vacation and probably carry out into the next month......or I sit reserve.
Anyway, I disagree it costs jobs. If someone smart can put pencil to paper and show me how it would I'll read it but I just don't see it. I honestly think it doesn't effect jobs one way or the other.
JMHO,
Ferd
06-23-2013, 12:12 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
more hand flying coming to the 88 as a training emphasis. kind of the opposite of vnav only and watch her fly herself. kind if like it.
06-23-2013, 12:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Excellent point.
The way it is now, guys are using white slips and swaps to basically fly full schedules even in months with vacations.
This "vacation any" thing is only going to make it easier to do that.
I guess max hours is what the pilot group wants. DALPA is sure acting like it anyway.
The way it is now, guys are using white slips and swaps to basically fly full schedules even in months with vacations.
This "vacation any" thing is only going to make it easier to do that.
I guess max hours is what the pilot group wants. DALPA is sure acting like it anyway.
06-23-2013, 12:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Denny-
Your example is accurate but consider the effect when you are able to break a week's vacation into individual days and sprinkle them around between your trips.
I don't guess I'm smart enough to describe a specific PBS example but it just seems intuitively obvious that this is going to make it easier to build more efficient lines around vacations.
The way it is now, the blocked week of vacation is put on your schedule first and the trips have to fit around it. With "vacation any" you build the schedule first and then PBS just puts individual vacation days on your days off. Its like you don't even have a "vacation". You need the days off for FAR rest anyway. Now you'll be able to call it vacation and a 24 in 7 break all in one. It becomes much easier to build a line and especially to build a line to the upper end of the construction window.
Seems like white slipping to 120 hours will also become easier if you don't have solid weeks blocked off.
Your example is accurate but consider the effect when you are able to break a week's vacation into individual days and sprinkle them around between your trips.
I don't guess I'm smart enough to describe a specific PBS example but it just seems intuitively obvious that this is going to make it easier to build more efficient lines around vacations.
The way it is now, the blocked week of vacation is put on your schedule first and the trips have to fit around it. With "vacation any" you build the schedule first and then PBS just puts individual vacation days on your days off. Its like you don't even have a "vacation". You need the days off for FAR rest anyway. Now you'll be able to call it vacation and a 24 in 7 break all in one. It becomes much easier to build a line and especially to build a line to the upper end of the construction window.
Seems like white slipping to 120 hours will also become easier if you don't have solid weeks blocked off.
In fact, I think your ability to white slip would be less since you may not have enough non vacation days off in a row........but as I said above, I'm thinking WB stuff.
Ferd
06-23-2013, 12:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Denny is correct.
Now, I will admit, it probably helps WB guys more than domestic NB guys and I used it when I flew the 12 day Asia trips at NWA.
The trip construction window stays the same. All it means is you fly one trip (that you want) and sprinkle your vacation days around it VS flying two trips in a normal non-vacation month.
Right now, on a vacation month I fly a couple of trips I don't want that fit around vacation and probably carry out into the next month......or I sit reserve.
Anyway, I disagree it costs jobs. If someone smart can put pencil to paper and show me how it would I'll read it but I just don't see it. I honestly think it doesn't effect jobs one way or the other.
JMHO,
Ferd
Now, I will admit, it probably helps WB guys more than domestic NB guys and I used it when I flew the 12 day Asia trips at NWA.
The trip construction window stays the same. All it means is you fly one trip (that you want) and sprinkle your vacation days around it VS flying two trips in a normal non-vacation month.
Right now, on a vacation month I fly a couple of trips I don't want that fit around vacation and probably carry out into the next month......or I sit reserve.
Anyway, I disagree it costs jobs. If someone smart can put pencil to paper and show me how it would I'll read it but I just don't see it. I honestly think it doesn't effect jobs one way or the other.
JMHO,
Ferd
Eggsactly! That's how I see it too. Check your pm's.
Denny
06-23-2013, 12:39 PM
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,930
[QUOTE=Herkflyr;1433109]
I think you (or ALPA) would have had a very hard time defending that. Bottom line is that green slips are "premium pay" trips. Whether they paid double, or time and a half, hardly matters.
The bottom line is that after our concessionary agreements, we still had GS that paid at overtime rates and allowed the company to draw on a pool of pilots that otherwise would not have been able to fly. Whether that is good or not is another discussion. It WAS the "status quo."
Again, I hated the idea of anyone flying a GS back then--I sure didn't. But after getting sued in 2001 over this issue DALPA had (and to this day, still has, just read the disclaimer every time you open up the DALPA forums) a circuit court ruling hamstringing us.
Herkflyr,
I agree that DALPA would have had a hard time defending that but I think we could have made a strong case. You say 150% or 200% does not matter - it is all premium pay. I disagree. What makes it premium is the added value. 150% is only has half the added value of 200%.
And I also think what actually happened bears this out. When Green-slips went from 200% to 150%, along with with some other restrictions, they were so less desirable that many guys stopped flying them. In fact so few were interested in them that the company agreed to return them back to 200% because they were much less effective as a scheduling tool for the company.
The bottom line is we will never know what would have happened. It would have played out in court and then anything can happen. It is disappointing to me that we did not even try, but I guess guys were gun-shy after being sued.
I do applaud your not putting in for green-slips with guys on furlough. It boggles my mind that any union member would put in for extra work while fellow union members are on the street. This does not seem to make for a very effective union.
Scoop
I think you (or ALPA) would have had a very hard time defending that. Bottom line is that green slips are "premium pay" trips. Whether they paid double, or time and a half, hardly matters.
The bottom line is that after our concessionary agreements, we still had GS that paid at overtime rates and allowed the company to draw on a pool of pilots that otherwise would not have been able to fly. Whether that is good or not is another discussion. It WAS the "status quo."
Again, I hated the idea of anyone flying a GS back then--I sure didn't. But after getting sued in 2001 over this issue DALPA had (and to this day, still has, just read the disclaimer every time you open up the DALPA forums) a circuit court ruling hamstringing us.
Herkflyr,
I agree that DALPA would have had a hard time defending that but I think we could have made a strong case. You say 150% or 200% does not matter - it is all premium pay. I disagree. What makes it premium is the added value. 150% is only has half the added value of 200%.
And I also think what actually happened bears this out. When Green-slips went from 200% to 150%, along with with some other restrictions, they were so less desirable that many guys stopped flying them. In fact so few were interested in them that the company agreed to return them back to 200% because they were much less effective as a scheduling tool for the company.
The bottom line is we will never know what would have happened. It would have played out in court and then anything can happen. It is disappointing to me that we did not even try, but I guess guys were gun-shy after being sued.
I do applaud your not putting in for green-slips with guys on furlough. It boggles my mind that any union member would put in for extra work while fellow union members are on the street. This does not seem to make for a very effective union.
Scoop
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