Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-23-2013 | 09:42 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Could this new hand flying "practice" in the sim be a result of Air France Flight 447?
"In the agency's final report, which was released today, investigators determined that a combination of technical failures and mistakes made by inadequately trained pilots was responsible for the crash. They recommended that pilots be better trained to manually fly commercial aircraft at high altitudes..."
It seems the First Officer had become so reliant on automation (and was probably trained in one of those european ab initio training cram jobs) he could not recognize what was happening when the airplane entered a stall...calling for the Captain to come help (the Captain was temporarily out of the cockpit). Watch the video with cvr text below and the video that follows.
Air France Flight 447 Crash 'Didn't Have to Happen,' Expert Says - ABC News
"In the agency's final report, which was released today, investigators determined that a combination of technical failures and mistakes made by inadequately trained pilots was responsible for the crash. They recommended that pilots be better trained to manually fly commercial aircraft at high altitudes..."
It seems the First Officer had become so reliant on automation (and was probably trained in one of those european ab initio training cram jobs) he could not recognize what was happening when the airplane entered a stall...calling for the Captain to come help (the Captain was temporarily out of the cockpit). Watch the video with cvr text below and the video that follows.
Air France Flight 447 Crash 'Didn't Have to Happen,' Expert Says - ABC News
But the report went on to say that there were at least 12 other instances where pilots encountered this issue and the flights continued normally without problems. Voss said the Air France pilots didn't seem prepared for the situation they found themselves in the night of the crash.
"[The pilots] seemed to have trouble looking past the automation they were accustomed to and not really able to continue with the old raw information that pilots used to depend on," he said. "Clearly the report shows that there was a lot of difficult communication on the flight deck, a lot of incomplete thoughts, a lot of confusion."
and
But in modern aviation, large commercial jets almost fly themselves. Voss said that on any given flight, pilots are manually flying the plane for only three minutes -- one minute and 30 seconds each for take-off and landing.
"The fact is there aren't many opportunities for a pilot to hand fly the aircraft anymore," he said. "The truth is it's only a few minutes during each flight, maybe until they climb up to altitude. Many airplanes don't even allow the hand flying for that long."
At the heart of the heated debate over so-called "automation addiction," which is when pilots are overly dependent on computers to fly their planes, is the question of whether pilots are actually learning how to properly fly large commercial aircraft.
"Because of this sophistication and the ability of airplane to fly themselves, they don't have as many people to actually fly the airplane, to actually exercise their stick and rudder capabilities," Bill Bozin, the vice president of safety and technical affairs at Airbus, told "Nightline" in June.
In the wake of the Air France crash, Voss said "many airlines" were retraining their pilots on flying manually, but that much more needs to be done to overhaul pilot training programs around the world.
"[The pilots] seemed to have trouble looking past the automation they were accustomed to and not really able to continue with the old raw information that pilots used to depend on," he said. "Clearly the report shows that there was a lot of difficult communication on the flight deck, a lot of incomplete thoughts, a lot of confusion."
and
But in modern aviation, large commercial jets almost fly themselves. Voss said that on any given flight, pilots are manually flying the plane for only three minutes -- one minute and 30 seconds each for take-off and landing.
"The fact is there aren't many opportunities for a pilot to hand fly the aircraft anymore," he said. "The truth is it's only a few minutes during each flight, maybe until they climb up to altitude. Many airplanes don't even allow the hand flying for that long."
At the heart of the heated debate over so-called "automation addiction," which is when pilots are overly dependent on computers to fly their planes, is the question of whether pilots are actually learning how to properly fly large commercial aircraft.
"Because of this sophistication and the ability of airplane to fly themselves, they don't have as many people to actually fly the airplane, to actually exercise their stick and rudder capabilities," Bill Bozin, the vice president of safety and technical affairs at Airbus, told "Nightline" in June.
In the wake of the Air France crash, Voss said "many airlines" were retraining their pilots on flying manually, but that much more needs to be done to overhaul pilot training programs around the world.
06-23-2013 | 10:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,473
Likes: 481
In the Airbus you're commanding load factor and roll rate. In that sense it's a different and unique airplane. But that AF447 crash had a bunch of factors: Fatigue/lack of appropriate sleep, late night flying, storms, turbulence, and unreliable speeds. However, one thing I don't understand is full deflection and holding it. If you're low to the ground, windshear, terrain, go ahead and command alpha max. But if you are high enough, and especially when you don't know what's really going on, the last thing you want to do is command full deflection in any surface, any direction. Not doing anything would have been a far better action. Same with AA587. No matter what the situation or training, full deflection opposing commands on any surface won't do you good. By the time the plane reacts one way, you're already headed the other on the control.
06-23-2013 | 10:43 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Same for the 88 (in the sim on a visual).
Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.
Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.
Normal arcing base turn to smoothly join final on path and on energy instead of pushing and pulling all sorts of knobs.. You know, be a pilot. The LCA has zero margin to give you anything on that. And if they do... you have significant margin to lean into them right back.
I spent a very short time on the 88, and that was a good operation then... all the fleets I've flown have promoted good command and control of the aircraft above all else. Know what it says in the books and send it right back to them if they lambast you for not doing their personal technique. Back it up with the book and you will always win... and if not, take it to the lead. If not... keep going. Rogue LCPs are what shall troll in the regional world, not the gentleman's carrier we work for.
Last edited by 80ktsClamp; 06-23-2013 at 10:57 PM.
06-23-2013 | 10:47 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
06-24-2013 | 02:56 AM
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 868
Likes: 18
From: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Same for the 88 (in the sim on a visual).
Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.
Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.
06-24-2013 | 03:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,707
Likes: 0
From: Permanently scarred
Yeah, I know...just bouncing back at FTB, who I'm confident knows that as well. My last partner in the sim fully demonstrated of which you speak.
06-24-2013 | 03:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 890
Likes: 0
From: ATL717A
I originally dug in my heels, because I was a IAS/VS guy. It's smooth and I don't like tossing granny out of her seat. I eventually liked Vnav on the 88, using it all the way to g/s intercept. I liked the challenge of making it smooth and precise and efficient. I never liked being told I should use it, or being critiqued for not using it.
On newer types of the MD series, which should be arriving within the next several months, you'll find this "requirement" no more - once inside of the terminal area, lose the Vnav (PROF) and use v/s or IAS (Level Change).
This short film clip demonstrates selecting V/S or IAS, and that Vnav is relinquishing control of the airplane (courtesy McDonnell Douglas):
06-24-2013 | 03:53 AM
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
This will not cost jobs.
06-24-2013 | 04:09 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
I think you're correct.
I originally dug in my heels, because I was a IAS/VS guy. It's smooth and I don't like tossing granny out of her seat. I eventually liked Vnav on the 88, using it all the way to g/s intercept. I liked the challenge of making it smooth and precise and efficient. I never liked being told I should use it, or being critiqued for not using it.
On newer types of the MD series, which should be arriving within the next several months, you'll find this "requirement" no more - once inside of the terminal area, lose the Vnav (PROF) and use v/s or IAS (Level Change).
This short film clip demonstrates selecting V/S or IAS, and that Vnav is relinquishing control of the airplane (courtesy McDonnell Douglas):
I originally dug in my heels, because I was a IAS/VS guy. It's smooth and I don't like tossing granny out of her seat. I eventually liked Vnav on the 88, using it all the way to g/s intercept. I liked the challenge of making it smooth and precise and efficient. I never liked being told I should use it, or being critiqued for not using it.
On newer types of the MD series, which should be arriving within the next several months, you'll find this "requirement" no more - once inside of the terminal area, lose the Vnav (PROF) and use v/s or IAS (Level Change).
This short film clip demonstrates selecting V/S or IAS, and that Vnav is relinquishing control of the airplane (courtesy McDonnell Douglas):
You win the discussion.
06-24-2013 | 04:33 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Don't you just hate it when you VNAV to the G/S Intercept, except, it just doesn't? So you have G/S armed and it misses by 3 inches and levels off. Now I'm the type who always just clicks off the autopilot and flies the airplane, but ....
A lot easier to correct a 20 foot deviation high than chase a G/S intercept from above after it goes several hundred feet high while you reset altitudes, punch a descent mode, dork with the power, add drag ...
My personal airplane has APP mode. Never use it.
A lot easier to correct a 20 foot deviation high than chase a G/S intercept from above after it goes several hundred feet high while you reset altitudes, punch a descent mode, dork with the power, add drag ...
My personal airplane has APP mode. Never use it.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
