I hear tsquare doesn't share though. :D

Carl

How do you get DCI to park 218 CR2s?

Well, it’s not by acquiring new mainline jets. We acquired MD-90s and they didn’t park any jets. We acquired 739s and they didn’t park any jets. I still haven’t heard of them parking CR2s because we acquired A321s and 330s. Seems to me, the acquisition of mainline jets and DCI parking 50-seaters has nothing to do with each other.

So in keeping with that precedence, if we had announced in March of 2012 that we’ve acquired all of SWA’s Boeing 717s that we’ve been looking at since 2010, how many CR2s would DCI have willfully just parked just cuz? 0. The two had nothing to do with each other.

Seems to me the only way you get DCI to park say 218 CR2s, that you’ve contracted them to fly, is you offer them something they want… 70 CR9s.
But under the current PWA at the time and a fleet of 720 jets, how many new CR9s was DAL allowed to acquire? 0.

So how do you get the pilots to allow 70 more CR9s without having to park a single CR7/E170 and not grow mainline?
So SWA in 2010 desperately wants out of the 717, the 717 is an MD product for commonality benefits, was a perfect 100 seater, would be cheap, Board loves it, could be acquired all at once to keep the price cheap and there was a possibility for a single category to save money (didn't happen of course but I do recall MD88 pilots being begged to bid it to save training costs).

At the same time you have a 50-seat fleet that's killing you with customers and costs.

So if you just could get more jumbo RJs to DCI to park 50-seaters and use the 717 to get the pilots to agree to it then look at all DAL would get (as stated by EB a month or so after we signed off on the deal):

Besides, how am I supposed to really believe that we got GK, Boeing, the Board, et. al. to risk all of this opportunity based on whether or not the dumb pilots voted in the first offer from the company on TA2012 and if they said no then oh well, lets keep those CR2s 4EVER! ?

So use the 717s you're going to acquire to get the pilots to say yes to more jumbo RJs and use that as leverage to get rid of the 50-seaters you hate. Tri-Winning.

What say you or RonRon?

I think I agree although I think you’re being sarcastic. I totally think system capacity isn’t something management is concerned about; anymore.

I’ve been told that thanks to us voting that contract in we’re about to grow from 720 jets to over 800, sometimes I hear 900. I remember that the 717s alone are 1,000 maybe 1,400 new pilots. That to me shows that when we vote yes, Delta goes from a capacity discipline mantra to an all-out capacity growth binge overnight and… well, wait… they still keep saying capacity discipline during the investor calls… and it’s not like we’re hiring for a growth binge…

/my sarcasm

So that kind of brings up a question. If we were really going to grow as much as was planned beyond the 767 mainline benchmark, why not just say to the pilots, “hey we need to park 50-seaters, the current contract is too limiting in that way, if we promise to grow to 801 jets would you allow us to keep the CR7s/E170s and we promise to put a cap at 450 DCI jets?”

Instead, we allowed more jet growth with no requirement for mainline beyond a BH ratio that is set to 1.56 at its best but that seems to be the ratio of DCI@450 and mainline domestic at its current size.

Why get rid of the mainline fleet size requirement and simultaneously set the ratio to a mere 1.56?

I still don't get the logic behind that.

Furlough-Bypass
 

Contacted today:). Mid Dec indoc. I am a late 2000 hire. DTW717 cat.....same as furlough base.:D:D Who knew it would take so long!

Here's the problem with this. Your union didnt think you could handle the truthfulness of it. FTB that is exactly how I saw it play out.

Welcome back! I think you'll really enjoy it here (again).

Besides, how am I supposed to really believe that we got GK, Boeing, the Board, et. al. to risk all of this opportunity based on whether or not the dumb pilots voted in the first offer from the company on TA2012 and if they said no then oh well, lets keep those CR2s 4EVER! ?


So use the 717s you're going to acquire to get the pilots to say yes to more jumbo RJs and use that as leverage to get rid of the 50-seaters you hate. Tri-Winning.

What say you or RonRon?[/QUOTE]

You made the point about acquiring 739s and not CRJ. So far at least, those aircraft were not being purchased as added capacity and 739s aren't exactly the size of aircraft you would use to replace RJ lift (less frequency, bigger aircraft)

Next issue is the board, Boeing etc not caring about what the pilots did with the TA. You can't have it both ways, either they needed us to make the deal happen (the deal being all the 717's, instead of less or another type of narrow body) or they didn't, which meant we had no leverage wrt that deal.

So I think that leaves the acquisition of more jumbo RJ's as the sole leverage (in your argument) to get the contract. Who knows, you could be spot on, but it is also only a theory and one based on less hard information than the MEC had. Again, I am not saying it isn't 100 percent spot on (who really knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men ie RA) there is just no way to say with 100 percent certainty that was the case.

I think this is where Slow's point about "religion" is spot on. You certainly can't prove your theory and I can't prove that it is wrong, so I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. You haven't proved that Slow's story is disingenuous either, so am I to believe the Catholic or the Methodist?

We can disagree all day long about the tangible data of whether it was enough, early enough, whether we should have waited etc, but it does annoy me when the MEC gets slammed for giving their best guess on how things may play out, but it is ok here to turn theory into pseudo statements of fact based on less data and to try and sell that to the pilots who frequent this board.

Anyway, I am going to enjoy my day off without getting into the creation museum debate.

My pet theory was that Delta had to buy something from Bombarider to facilitate the swap. Management had to have inducements to renegotiate with their vendors.

The CSeries just ended up being late, too expensive and unproven. The 717 is a stop gap until we see what the real deal is with the newer market alternatives.

My theory.

ALPA made a little hay while the sun was shining. Now I hope some pilots remember work riles while they shout PAY PAY PAY. We need reroute fixes rather badly with FTDT coming up. If not dutying in for a trip is going to uber short call reserve.

Welcome back!

Was that the earliest class they had for you?

FTB,

Glad you brought it up. I don't have the answer, but have been wanting us to dig here.

The Next Gen aircraft Delta has been buying were quite a bit more efficient, have improved maintenance specs and are not as performance limited as their predecessors. Delta wanted the new version ... and mostly wanted to keep their other large RJ's. It has been a long time since I dug up the numbers.

Current Block Hours Costs including CapEx, Fuel, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance, Taxes:

717 - $5,033* (Hawaiian)
DC950 - $4,206
737-700- $4,483 (Delta)
737-700- $4,175 (Southwest)
MD90 - $4,829
A320 - $4,836
MD88 - $4,636
737-800-$4,981

Source - Oliver Wyman, PlaneStats.com, using form 41 data, reported 5 September 2013

* Delta's costs should be lower when reported due to lower CapEx component & longer stage length.