Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 677392)

I believe what he meant was the return to our pre-C2K Line of Time construction and reserve rules. They wouldn't add 2000 pilots, but lowering the cap to 75 hours and the inefficiencies of LOT/reserve construction would be a high number. Remember also we're signficantly overstaffed for winter flying, so the numbers would be even less.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 677364)

And you plan on getting around the Railway Labor Act how?

P.S. C2k plus 30 percent would almost double current pay rates. Combined with the work rule changes requiring the company to hire 2000 plus pilots your looking at at least 2 Billion a year in additional costs to the company. I have no doubt your ideas on the contract will be close to our opener and that is why it will take years before we make even minor progress.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 677399)

To give a example of the impact of work rules at Delta. In June of 09 we flew almost as many pilot block hours as prior to 911 in 2001 at Delta S. At that point we had 10,300 pilots. We were however overstaffed then and the real need was perhaps 9500 pilots. In June of 09 we flew close to the same amount of block hours with 7000 pilots. Multiple the effect by adding in the Delta N side and I think 2000 is a very conservative number. We harp over and over about scope and the RJ however we gave away more jobs in work rules.

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 677379)

What's your plan if the company is just muddling through? Losing money?:confused:

Maybe we ought to learn from the past a little bit and find a different way to capture value. I don't know what that is, but I do know what we've done historically has always had us out of sync with the company or economy.

From 1986-1990 we were locked in a low gain B scale contract. The company boomed. We grew, but pay didn't follow profits.
From 1990-1996 we had a decent deal. The company and economy tanked. 602 of our pilots were furloughed.
From 1996-2000 we got a concessionary contract. The company boomed. We got scraps.
From 2000-2004 we had the best overall book in the industry. The company and economy tanked. 1310 pilots were furloughed, leading up to LOA 46 and a record concessionary contract.
From 2004-2007 we fought to survive as the company failed. We took even greater concessions and lost our pension in the failure. 2008 we merged, and extracted 6% of the company stock for pilots, plus restored 18% of our wages over time. The company is muddling along, paying a small profit sharing one year, but losing money the next, and projected to lose money, then not make much for the next 2 years.

How are you going to walk in and demand C2K + 30%? Do you even want to do that considering the history above?

I believe we have to find different ways. I don't know what they are, but I'm tired of seeing this repetitive pattern of failure.

Oh, I edited out your political statement. Please don't get our thread locked...:eek:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 677399)

To give a example of the impact of work rules at Delta. In June of 09 we flew almost as many pilot block hours as prior to 911 in 2001 at Delta S. At that point we had 10,300 pilots. We were however overstaffed then and the real need was perhaps 9500 pilots. In June of 09 we flew close to the same amount of block hours with 7000 pilots. Multiple the effect by adding in the Delta N side and I think 2000 is a very conservative number. We harp over and over about scope and the RJ however we gave away more jobs in work rules.

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 677403)

OK.. help me with the math here. We took a 46% paycut in BK. A 30% pay increase doubles the payrates again... how?? KY public school system here, but that dog don't hunt. And you did say payrates... see your above quote. As far as the RLA... I don't know.. And maybe it's frustration, but we don't have to wait 3 years to have an impasse declared.

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 677406)

Sailing,

I think the actual need was for 8200 pilots in 2001, and that included over 60 3-man 727's that were retired by 2004. There was also a substantial difference in block hours. Our schedule for 9/2001 was for 202,000 hours. June 2009 wasn't close to that for the south.

The change to PBS saved the company 7-8% in manning. The change to the "cap" also eliminated some jobs, but that number is dependent on how much the ALV is above 75 (or 78 when there were no furloughs) and how much guys actually fly.