Most of those rats are like tamed Raccoons :D

OK, I keep seeing mixed messages in your posts about this. First you say we need top be careful because there is (my word) danger in the details. Then you go on to say there is huge potential for us here. OK.. define the potential. All I see is yet another revenue stream for the company that does not involve Delta pilots doing the work. So... what is it we are to sieze? :confused: As far as the JV with AF goes... I'll believe it is a good thing when I see results. They may not take any of our flying, but I'll betcha we don't see any appreciable growth from it either. (Just like we are gonna see with JAL) As a matter of fact.. all I can see out of any of this garbage is stagnation. I'm just glad I still have my shares, cause the only winners I see here *(besides management) are the shareholders. Labor is gonna get hosed again. But then again, I could be very wrong.

Tamed??? :confused:

OK I will lay out this as I see it....

Benefits:
Long term the Pacific Rim will once again be a power house in terms of revenue. Capturing a major stake in JAL, or slots would protect the investment DAL made in NRT. That is the surface of it.
With this revenue being shored up, DAL the company makes more money, give a return to it stake holder, gets more favorable lease rates, better interest on debt, greater netting effect for traffic to and from the us, and a share of the revenue stream. Lets not forget messing up half of the Globe for One Word.

Dangers:
We are foolishly betting our balance sheet on a carrier that is going in the dumps. (Read, needs government support to stay a float) risking our future on a major gamble. Puts us in to the red. (Good part is we own a majority and not all)

For the pilots, we rubber stamp this deal, do not look at how it effects current or future flying further stagnating our career progression, earning potential, which results in less money in the pot to give us, and lower retirement savings due to the lack of movement and earning potential.
Like I said, we need to be careful with this one. Different game buying a controlling interest. We need to make sure that any agreement benefits us the pilots. We cannot just allow ourselves to get steamrolled over on this one. It would cost us dearly.

The AF/KLM deal should be good for us. We have not seen any positive effects to date due to the horrible economy. I would suspect that once we start seeing a hearty recovery we will see routes added on both side of the Atlantic. The nagging question and what ifs, is would DAL have done all of the growth if we would have gone it alone?

I think that there is a possibility of good for us the pilots in this. Like many people I talk to, we want it to be good for us, and it better be, but we do not know the details yet. I am skeptical as most are. I want to be pleasantly surprised buy the success of the deal.

I am sure that LM will brief us at the LEC meeting on the 24th.

The Raccoons in my back yard come up near the house and just look at us. They basically are quite nice, they wait patiently for us to finish dinner, and then forage for scraps.


Ya know tame, as in almost domesticated. :rolleyes:

This could also all just be a ploy to have AMR dump a ton of money in to JAL and further weaken their position.
If that is the case, it is decision time for AMR.

Oh holey donkey D!ks!

When was the last time we voted on anything involving giving away flying and it was actually good for the DELTA pilots?

Anyone?

Well, read Section 1E of the PWA. Depending on how this deal is done, there are certain protections that could in fact add flying for our pilots. Like I said, the devil is in the detail, both on how the company consummates this deal, and how DALPA agrees to it.

1E 2.d and 1E 3

E. Permitted Arrangements with Foreign Air Carriers

d. passenger seats on any Fifth Freedom flight segment between Japan and Asian cities
beyond Japan, unless 316 weekly NRT slots are scheduled to be utilized in Company
flying.
Exception: Through October 30, 2011, the Company will be deemed in compliance
with this provision if it schedules not less than 85% of such 316 weekly NRT slots.
3. If the Company’s ownership level (i.e., the percentage of ownership referred to in
Section 1 B. 16. a.) in a foreign air carrier exceeds 25%, the Company flying block hours
scheduled in any month between the United States and the country of the foreign air
carrier, will not be less than the Company flying block hours scheduled between the two
countries in the same month of the twelve-month period prior to the month in which the
Company’s ownership level first exceeds 25%. The Company will be excused from
compliance with this provision in the event a circumstance over which the Company does
not have control is the cause of such non-compliance.

Delta/Japan Deal Would Hurt American

09/11/09 - 06:27 PM EDT Leave a Comment
DAL , AMR , UAUA
Ted Reed
Ted Reed

DALLAS (TheStreet) -- If Delta(DAL Quote) actually wants to buy into Japan Airlines, it could have a battle on its hands.
American(AMR Quote), currently a partner with Japan in the Oneworld alliance and through a code-share, which enables the carriers to write tickets on one another's flights, would likely be seriously hurt by such a deal, because its ability to carry passengers into Asia would be imperiled.

"This would be a body blow to American, and it would decimate Oneworld," said aviation consultant Robert Mann. "American would have to go to the mat to prevent it."

A series of media reports on Friday said Delta is discussing the purchase of the biggest stake in financially troubled Japan Airlines, the biggest carrier at Tokyo's Narita, Asia's most important airport because of its importance to Japan and its web of connections throughout the continent. Delta has not commented, and a JAL spokesman denied the report to several news outlets.

American spokesman Tim Smith also declined to comment, except to say that "Japan Airlines has been an excellent partner, both for American and Oneworld."

The real problem is that the world has three international aviation alliances and just two major Japanese carriers, JAL and All Nippon Airways. JAL is a key member of Oneworld, along with American and British Airways. ANA is in the Star Alliance with United(UAUA Quote) and Lufthansa.

SkyTeam, the third alliance, includes Delta and Air France. Some news accounts have AirFrance involved with Delta in the JAL investment.

For American, the partnership with JAL provides a key method to carry passengers beyond Tokyo to points in Asia. In 2007, American moved into a JAL terminal at Narita, enabling it to reduce connect times to many JAL flights. At the time, Don Casey, then managing director for international planning, declared: "When you look at the three alliances, all three have about a third of the U.S.-to-Japan (market). That is why we are so excited about having Japan come into Oneworld."

Currently, American offers five daily round trips to Tokyo, including two from Dallas and one each from Chicago, Los Angeles and New York. It also code shares with JAL on several flights from the same gateways. From Narita, JAL serves dozens of cities in Asia.

Delta already operates a small hub at Narita, the result of its 2005 merger with Northwest, which obtained rights to fly beyond Tokyo into Asia in 1947. Delta serves Narita from seven cities in North America, Honolulu, and 14 cities in Asia.

"If you figure in all that traffic originating in Japan and all the traffic JAL can pull into its hub and then you add the Delta traffic from the U.S., it's a double whammy," Mann says. "It helps you in Asia, and gives you the best service from the United States"

Delta's offer surfaced at a time when the U.S. and Japan are engaged in bilateral talks, which could increase the amount of competition between the two countries, although historically Japan has been reluctant to liberalize air traffic agreements. No doubt Delta's offer for JAL involves a calculation regarding the talks.

Another factor at play is that over time, the value of a strong presence at Narita is expected to diminish, as airplanes like the Boeing 787 and the Airbus A350 provide U.S. carriers with the capacity to serve key markets in Asia with non-stop flights from U.S. hubs.

At the moment, the first 787 delivery, which will be to ANA, is 2 1/2 years behind schedule, and A350 deliveries are even further off. However, the impact of those delays is mitigated by the current economic slump, which has reduced trans-Pacific traffic.

-- Written by Ted Reed in Charlotte, N.C. .