The extra 5 years of work more than make up for that, esp. when you take into consideration the note sale. Age 65, the scope sale, PERPs, all of this, was paid for by the lower 2/3 of the list in furloughs and career expectations. You are correct that those coming on now will not feel the loss, assuming they aren't derailed by other threats to our jobs...

 

Are you in NY right now?

 

I don't now look at the extra 5 years of work as a benefit, more like a requirement. I would have gladly taken my $1 million plus lump sum and 10k per month annuity along with 401k savings at 60. We could argue this all day, but the bottom line is we really have 3 seniority lists or more. The top third who want $, the middle third who want $ and for the top third to retire, and the bottom third who want hiring, $, seat progression, and not to get furloughed. There are guys here hired after 1999 who have seen furloughs, stagnation, etc. So when I fly I don't complain about what I have lost as I believe there are those who have sacrificed an awful lot more than me. Sorry for the long post.

 

70? Was a zero missing from that? Not saying I don't believe you, but that sounds awfully low.

While I disagree that they will WANT to bring them in-house, they will probably NEED to bring them in-house to ensure that flying is staffed.

What I'm concerned about, is that the 9E-type agreements become the favored solution. Clearly mgmt teams are attempting to use this carrot as a means to keep pilots off the mainline longevity scale at significantly depressed rates.

I believe that the coming decade will provide the opportunity to turn this career around. We, collectively as a profession, need to ensure that we make the most of these opportunities. I'm not sure exactly how to go about it, but allowing an off-list C scale (9E et al) is not an acceptable solution. I'm heartened by the EGL and XJT groups rejection of their BS contracts. The more regional pilots refuse to accept substandard living conditions, the better our collective leverage becomes for recovering the flying - to everyone's benefit.

Given the 9E precedent though, it seems like the only way to bring it all back home is if they feel some crushing pain staffing-wise. We need to have our strategy in place when the company comes asking for help with a solution. The only answer IMO is "bring all that flying to mainline and offer those pilots jobs at the bottom of the Delta seniority list."

Sooner or later the various regionals are going to begin defaulting on their performance obligations because they can't staff the airplanes. That will provide Delta the leverage necessary to reclaim the airframes (ie get out of the contracts Freedom style.) Once Delta, the corporation, decides that they are taking over the flying, there is no DFR conversation or Comair power-play shenanigans. If Delta wants/needs to get this done, it will be done. We MUST have our solution/suggestion ready when they come to us.

 

The bottom 1/3 want the top 1/3 to retire too

You bring up a good point though. We all need to realize that it's not "all about me" and that there are plenty of others on the list that have a different set of priorities. If we can all keep that in mind going into C2015 there could be less in-fighting. Putting ourselves in each other's shoes for a minute is important as we will all have to compromise on something due to the collective wishes of the group. We're simply too diverse demographically to please everyone on every issue.

 

A gubbamint report issued Friday (I'll see if I can find a link) and Gordon Bethune on CNBC this morning both talk about how the regionals are having trouble finding pilots due to the low salaries. Even if they double them this afternoon, it won't fix the problem. There is a time lag, and it is not a short one. Everyone is starting to notice. This problem has no quick fix, and it isn't going away tomorrow. Probably the best business move would be to buy the regionals outright for control. (yeah I know it was tried before, but this is a little different) Then hire like crazy to get all the available pilots and run the airline a little fat for awhile until the trained pilot force can catch up. Our task would be to get those pilots on the seniority list with their airplanes. (I actually think you are saying the same thing.. sort of) I won't vote yes on any contract that pays one red cent to accomplish this however. This is a freebie to us.

 

Nice misrepresentation. I never stated that Delta couldn't afford to pay. I stated mainline costs way more. You call for "unity" but never show a path to get there. If you want your counterparty to agree, you've got to solve the math problem.

I'll use your post as an example. You've chosen a series of trips from one of the most senior CPZ pilots. He's being paid 7th year pay (maybe). CPZ has 439 pilots on the seniority list operating 42 aircraft. Compare that to mainline. CPZ averages 13 days of vacation per year. Compare that to mainline. CPZ has 1 training program. Compare that to mainline. CPZ has no duty or trip rigs. Compare that to mainline. A CPZ 6 year Captain makes $76/hr. The most junior Captain payscale at Delta (12 year CRJ-900 which is where any 76 seat Captain would be) is $136. A 76 seat mainline Captain would make more than a CPZ Captain and FO combined. There's a host of other costs not mentioned (other labor groups, longevity, benefits, hotels, etc.}

That's your math problem. Solve it, then you can talk about unity.

A goal without a plan is just a wish. Antoine de Saint-Exupery

 

Nope, I'm off.

 

I have an early sign in tomorrow so I am headed up tonight. Thought I could get an accurate weather report

 

Part 1:

TSquare,

The key is unity.

If we were to extend our list down to capture the ALPA member express pilots (merge them by DOH with their peers) then roll our seniority numbers down to make their jobs "Delta" jobs while closing the permissions in our Section 1 as are necessary to align the contract with reality ... the problem is instantly fixed.

Delta will never have a problem hiring pilots for Delta jobs.

Only ALPA could administer such a thing.

If you recall, we profited from a Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Lee Moak and our MEC leveraged unity for pay. We know how to do that. Instead of saying you will not give up a cent, why not make the better argument of "what can I get for this?"

If you graph pilot pay by aircraft productivity (which is how we've always done it) the RJ guys make more for less while you make less for more. I would argue that in exchange for a career with a future we probably need to shift the pay curve to the right (your end) prior to your retirement.

The benefit to the small jet (they aren't regional jets) pilot is that their flight training now leads them into a career instead of a dead end.

This is the way forward, if we can convince our leadership to capitalize on it.

There is a first mover advantage to Delta management.