sailingfun

There have been no manning changes as a result of contract 2012. FO categories were overmanned prior to contract 2012 because of excellent no furlough provisions that forced Delta to keep a large surplus of pilots on the property. Keeping parroting your massive job loss from 2012 in spite of the facts won't make it true.

Free Bird

Not sure how we can raise the TLV and let Reserves fly to ALV+15 and it not affect staffing?

Mesabah

Yes, but we were late to the party. NWA was recalling by the time we got it up and running. Keep in mind, though, Mesaba was not expanding while NWA was furloughing. In fact Mesaba was furloughing at the same time as NWA. However, Pinnacle was hiring NWA street captains, Compass was too in 06-07. There is no bad blood that exists between the former NWA RJers and mainline, this is not the situation that played out at Delta, not even close. Most guys here think the RJDC is a power connector.

Herkflyr

You may call me or others a "DALPA regular" all you like, but we like to interject facts in the midst of some of your complaints, many of which just aren't true, or at best only tell half the story.

The fact is, that if you are on reserve, compared to pre-C2012...

- reserves now get the Average Daily Guarantee of 4.30 a day; I can't tell you the number of two day trips that used to pay four hours for a reserve (two duty period minimums) that now pay nine

- in fact many of those same two-days used to pay 7.15 for a regular line holder (example dhATL-MCO, layover, MCO-ATL; it paid 2 hrs for day one and 5.15 for day two); most regular lineholders would not pickup such a trip because it just wasn't worth it at 7.15.

- guess what? You rarely see those going to reserves any more (and remember they used to just pay four hours if they did) because evidently 9 hours for such an easy 2-day is sufficient for most regular guys to pick up, sparing the reserves having to fly the trip at all--but if they did, they would get the same nine hours!

- have you had a reserve month with a week or more of vacation? with our current contract you have your own personal reserve guarantee which is quite a bit less than the posted guarantee; we didn't have that prior to this contract and that makes a big difference in quality of life

- why MUST you work more? In fact with the ADG my guess is that most reserves will work less to get to the same number of credited hours. Have you heard of "rolling thunder?" If you are in a severely undermanned category, then put in a GS on your x-days, hopefully get one awarded, get paid for the trip on top of the reserve guarantee AND get your x-days back--not bad; in fact Crew Resources badly wanted to get rid of the x-day payback during our BK negotiations--ALPA refused to discuss it, though no one even credits them with anything positive like that.



Look, no one here is Pollyanna claiming that all is perfect and how could you possibly want anything else. What we are saying is that our contract, warts and all, has a lot of good elements to it, and DALPA has done a good job of getting value for the DAL pilots, one small step at a time, for several years now.

Guys like the DPA crowd and you (though I acknowledge you are not on that train) just don't seem to want to admit to any of it.

Ferd149

I think that May effect the numbers of new hires going forward, but it doesn't disprove what Sailing said.....we were over manned due to the merger and reserves didn't fly as much "back then" (some line holders either )

Can you imagine this place if we had furloughed post merger....can you say USAir

Ferd

Herkflyr

I think what Sailing is stating is that we made zero changes to the contractual staffing formulas. As far as I know he is correct.

I think what you might be thinking is that if we let/mandate that guys fly more, that at some point it will set off contractual triggers requiring more hiring. I think that you are probably correct there.

He is also correct in that we were significantly overstaffed on FOs for awhile, and in other eras and other airlines, hundreds would have been furloughed with hardly any afterthought.

But, thanks to many, including the much-vilified Lee Moak, we had (and have) some very clever anti-furlough provisions in our contract. For starters, a blanket "no furlough" clause isn't worth the toilet paper it is written on. Mgmt will just claim some extraordinary situation, furlough anyway, claim force majeure, etc, and see us in court.

However, what we do have, while not explicitly prohibiting furloughs, inflicts so much pain on the RJ fleet plan (especially the removal of seats 71-76 on ALL 76-seat RJs if so much as ONE mainline pilot is furloughed) that it stayed mgmt's hand. DALPA hardly gets any credit for that either.

Ferd149

That's the way I remember things from the NWA side too. There wasn't the bad blood that the Delta vs their regionals had.

shiznit

How much more work does the avg reserve pilot work?

Is that a function of the company reducing the over-staffed position of the airline or from the "concessions". How many positions have been reduced as a ratio to block hours that proves your assertion?

Is it a personal perception or a provable reality?

Did reserves have more days off or less days off pre/post C2012?
Did reserves gain more days off from eliminating training proration post C2012?
Did reserves utilize the ability to work less with vacation and training pay/credit increases?
Did reserve pilots benefit from the ADG rig applying to their rotations instead of the pre C2012 method?
Did Delta reserve pilots benefit by being paid ALV-2:00 and being full at ALV-2:00 (or less)?
Did they benefit more under a 70:00 pay and being full at ALV?
How many instances of pilots flying above ALV can you cite?

Honestly, I do not believe your assertions or find your position credible in regards to reserves.

Sink r8

I don't know if your relationship with them was tested the way ours was. Perhaps it could have gotten ugly if the DC-9 had eventually been retired without a replacement NB order?

As for us, there were two huge problems: 1) support for the RJDC, which is unforgiveable, and 2) lobbying against the hiring of Delta furloughees (without resigning seniority) after 9/11.

The lawsuit was a loaded gun pointed at our heads. They shrugged it off after it misfired, and pretended it was a few crazy guys, but we all know that both the union, and a great number of pilots, would have liked to see it succeed.

As for the attack on our furloughees, for zero gain, it was the absolute last straw.

From my viewpoint, they made their bed, they can sleep in it. With that being said, the RJ problem exists as a result of our own errors, so we would be stupid to be made at RJ drivers for driving RJ's. Besides, I never judge an individual by the actions of a group, because it's impossible to tell where the individual stood at the time. To no one's surprise, you can't find an ex-RJ driver that will own up to supporting the RJDC, just like you couldn't find a hard-core Nazi in post-war Germany. It's OK: we can all move forward on a different basis. I take people at their word, and we move on.

nwaf16dude

Crazy rumor from another board...this should generate some fun. I don't believe it for a minute, but I know the contract extension is one of RAs favorite tools..,here goes...

The Company would like to extend our contract 2 years. And for this 2-year extension, they are willing to offer us a 10% pay increase in Year 1, and another 10% increase in Year 2.

However, no one should believe that the Company is willing to do this out of any altruism towards us. We are already at, or very near to the highest paid pilots in the industry, so why would they put us further in front of our colleagues at our competitors?

The reason is: Parker won't be able to keep his pilot pay at 60% of ours forever. American has a "Pay Parity" mechanism with UAL and DL approaching in 2016 (according to APC). And given that we're making tons of money now, Delta can afford to pay us that extra money, but when our payrates translate into the AAG payrates, AAG will be financially stressed.

Anderson is playing three-dimensional chess.